Warning Message from Anonymous

[centip3de]

I hate to go there but... you must be an American.
Every country in the EU has this, and every country that calls itself democratic pretends to aspire to this.
I think the problems mentioned in this video are that the US is moving away from the standard seperation of powers(legislature, an executive, and a judiciary). Shitty laws will not be apealed, you will not have the right to a fair trail(or any trail). All they have to do is use the T word and they can do whatever they want with you. The judiciary branch is being kept out of the loop for as many things as possible.
As for internet freedoms, ISPs don't want to block sites. They are being forced to block sites, thats quite a difference.(and a dick move)
But not as bad as the huge systematic privacy invasion thats going on. If you use a social network, there are plenty of words that you will often use that'll get you flagged(which means your conversation will get stored in some gov database). If you want to give me a call, our conversation will get recorded, transcribed and then stored for future reference(because I'm a foreigner, so you lose all rights). If you're traveling out of state and have your mobile phone with you, you will get flagged.
All those are automatic and already in place. Now if for some reason someone in lawinforcement wants to target you specificly(for instance if you broke up with his daughter) they can, they don't need a warent, and they don't ever have to mention that they did it. And if someone uses the T word, they can simply skip all that and shoot you.
These things seem like huge problems to me.
And I know you guys have never had fascism, or life under stasi rule. But those memories are still fresh enough here in europe to not want to go there ever again and to always watch out for those signs.

Then encourage other people to fix it! You don't run away (or secede, or start wars) when shit hits the fan, you stay in one place and fix it. There's plenty of brilliant minds that are truly dedicated to the cause, and hacking into/taking down government servers isn't going to help it. What's really going to help the cause is what's going on in the courts right now, or in congress right now. If people were really dedicated to the problem, that's where they'd start.

Lets all be happy for this. 10% of evil seems high though, I'd like to believe its lower then that. The problem in my opinion would be that it only takes a very small amount to have some serious consequences(ex: bossman sais spy on civilians, the 99 people working under them are simply doing their job. As seems to be the case in the NSA right now, only its a lot more then 99 people). And if I look at those injustices of the past as you say.. the US has been horrible at fixing those things. It seems to have taken decades if not more for it to correct itself. And right now it isn't moving forward but backwards.. I have no idea how they'll somehow change their backwards momentum. Add to that that the political scene has changed, money talks more then it ever has.

Lots of things went backwards before going forwards, for instance; a long time ago, slavery didn't exist. And if it did (in America (~1700)), there was a period of servitude, then the land owner would give the slave land, and the slave would be free. However, quickly it escalated (i.e. went backwards), to a complete shit storm of freedom oppression and abuse, and yet, we, as a country, powered through and stopped it. How? Did the war really help? Well, first off, the war wasn't actually started over slavery, it was started over an issue of counting slaves on the ballet in the south, so no, the war didn't really help. The way it was solved was in the court room and in Congress, which is why I'm advocating people stop thinking that a war would solve our problems, when it quite clearly wouldn't.

So yeah hate to say it, but you guys are doomed.

I beg to differ.

[NoviceBlackout]

People wanting to "start a war" is only going to give the American government more reason to being in more invasive laws, and script kiddies using a DDOS on an official websites only gives the government more reason to be overly cautious of people using the internet.

[centip3de]

People wanting to "start a war" is only going to give the American government more reason to being in more invasive laws, and script kiddies using a DDOS on an official websites only gives the government more reason to be overly cautious of people using the internet.

This too.

[Mars7411]

I hate things like this, I really, really, really hate things like this. I mean, the United States currently has one of the best if not the best legal systems out there in both their fair treatment of the American populous, and their ability to over throw laws that are found unjust, even if they made them in the first place. Not only that, but as Americans, we have the most freedoms given to it's populous. I mean, the very thought that we can talk about our government freely together, right here, right now, is a privilege that most other people take for granted. In North Korea, if we were having a similar conversation, we'd be arrested and killed (or possibly made use as slaves) faster than we could apologize (yes, that is an extreme example, but if you want a less extreme example that still proves my point, just ask).

What is that you say? Internet liberties are different than physical ones? No. They're not. There is nowhere in any law, on the planet (that I am aware of at least) that guarantee's you that you'll be able to go to all the websites you want. No law that guarantee's that you'll be able to do what you want on the Internet, otherwise, I'm pretty sure the majority of site blockers are breaking the law. Besides, if you're hosting your site on a certain ISP that doesn't like what you're doing, you have no right to tell them that they can't do it. It's their property, their servers, and their files -- the fact that you're renting it from them doesn't mean all that much when you're breaking their ToS.

Though, the thing that really ticks me off, is when civilians believe to their hearts content that they know how to run the American Government better than it is going right now. Yes, right now there's lots of shit that is really bad and needs to be stopped, and yes, the government is probably doing stuff that we wouldn't approve of if it were made public. However, as a whole, the government is a huge ass entity (estimated at just shy of 20 million people working for it right now (http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=228)), and as a whole, it's doing its just exactly how it should. But, when you have such a large set of people such as 20 million, you could probably guess that 2 million or so, will be doing shit that's wrong (just a guess). That's about 10% of the government that's doing things that are wrong. That means that 90% of the government is doing things completely right! Sure, we have issues, but those can and will be fixed (look back over the years at the injustices that have existed in America and that were fixed, in comparison to today). (and to those who think they can make a better government, if you can tell me what each position will be in the 20 million jobs, and how every single law and rule will work, I'll believe you. Wait, what is that? You can't do that? You're going to have to borrow some of the practices the US government uses? Then why create another replica of the one you already have)

What it really breaks down to though, is that people are getting their toes stepped on and aren't used to it. People aren't used to not being given everything they want, when they want it, and how they want it. The American populous is pretty much like a toddler right now, and the US Government is giving it a chocolate chip cookie with milk, with just maybe one or two chocolate chips less than the toddler is used to, so what does the toddler do? It want's to flip shit, raise hell, and run away over absolutely nothing. Fuck people like that.

TL;DR: Rant.

Yes, Us Americans do have the most freedom, lets take a look, hmm, it's illegal to collect rain water in most places now, it's illegal to plant a garden in lots of places now, and in some places, it's even illegal to take sand from a beach. So, for the most part, we are worse than China. http://www.naturalnews.com/029286_rainw ... water.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/08/mi ... le-garden/ http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/274.html

[centip3de]

Yes, Us Americans do have the most freedom, lets take a look, hmm, it's illegal to collect rain water in most places now, it's illegal to plant a garden in lots of places now, and in some places, it's even illegal to take sand from a beach. So, for the most part, we are worse than China. http://www.naturalnews.com/029286_rainw ... water.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/07/08/mi ... le-garden/ http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/274.html

First off, the rainwater ban was only in 3 states. 3/50 = 0.06 . So 6% of the country cannot collect water without getting a permit first. I don't think 6% of our country is "most places". Besides, if you don't like the laws that the state government has imposed, move away. Go to a different one where that law isn't imposed and collect all the water you want.

Secondly, the garden incident, was about her placement of the garden. It was in her front yard, instead of her back, and was (I assume) causing an eyesore for many of the surrounding neighbors. If she had put in her back yard to start with, none of this would have happened, and she could have freely kept her garden and been fine. Also, this is COUNTY, in Michigan. So, 1 state, out of 50 (1/50) = 0.2% of the country. Currently, Michigan has 83 counties in it, so 0.2/83 = 0.00024. So, 0.00024% of our country can't have a garden in the FRONT of their house. That hardly seems like "lots of places".

Thirdly, the link you posted said nothing about taking sand, and was from legislature in OREGON, not the US. It said that you may have to pay royalties on the things you build with materials taken from streams, but that they're free to take.

So, now, on to your comparison of China, why don't we compare the two (US and China) over freedoms and rights given innately by their government:

US Freedoms/Rights:

Freedom of religion
Freedom of speech
Freedom of press
Freedom of assembly
Freedom of petition
Freedom from quartering soldiers
Freedom from excessive bail or fines
Freedom from cruel or unusual punishment
Freedom to vote (with a fair, and un-rigged vote (I'm looking at you, middle east))
The right to privacy (as dictated by the Supreme Court)
The right to not be a slave
The right to citizenship of any person born in the US
The right to equal protection of national and state laws
The right to be free of any law that deprives a person life, liberty, or property without due process
The right to vote even if a poll tax or any other tax is unpaid
The right to face your accusers
The right to due process
The right of just compensation for takings
The right to a speedy trial
The right to be informed of the charges you're being accused of
The right to produce witnesses for the accused
The right to a legal counsel
The right to elect who runs your country/county/city/state
The right to a fair and balanced trial in front of a jury of your peers
The right to an impartial judge
The right to non-self-incrimination (i.e. the 5th amendment)
The right to not be tried twice for the same for the same offense (double jeopardy)
The right to bear arms (can be seen as the freedom to own guns)

So far, US = 28 (and these are only in the US constitution and amendments, we're not counting rights that are bestowed upon you by your state/city/county or any other laws that talk about said rights)

Chinese freedoms/rights:

Freedom of Speech (Although this is in their constitution, the Chinese government often uses the subversion of state power and the protection of state secret clause to imprison those who are critical of the government. Not only this, but the government is heavily involved in censoring the news (spoken news), even though no law gives them the power)

Freedom of press (99% of all news must pass through filters, that are read by the government first, in order to go out to the public. Recently, the Freedom house ranked China as "Not Free" in it's annual press freedom survey)

Freedom of movement (This one checks out, however most migrant works are treated as 2nd class citizens)
Freedom of religion (Once again, checks out, however when their current government was taken over, relgious affairs of all types were persecuted and discouraged)
Freedom to vote (Checks out)

Freedoms and rights guaranteed by the government (in the constitution/amendments only) = 5

Not only does China not guarantee even 20% of all the rights the US does, but many of the rights it guarantee's is blatantly taken away from them. In fact, only 3 out of the 5 rights it guarantee's are held up to any degree at all.

Conclusion?:
So if you're count ONLY the number of rights that are held up in comparison of the US to China, it's 28 (US) to 3 (China). That means that the United States Government guarantee's 90% more right's than China at this moment.

Sources (where I actually found ALL of my information):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... _liberties
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_resp.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_libe ... ted_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_libe ... ted_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution

Side note:
I don't even know if Fox News should count as a valid source for anything besides republicans becoming more entrenched in their own views. Almost everything they say on that show has proven, one way or another, to be a lie.

[Mars7411]

First off, the rainwater ban was only in 3 states. 3/50 = 0.06 . So 6% of the country cannot collect water without getting a permit first. I don't think 6% of our country is "most places". Besides, if you don't like the laws that the state government has imposed, move away. Go to a different one where that law isn't imposed and collect all the water you want.

Secondly, the garden incident, was about her placement of the garden. It was in her front yard, instead of her back, and was (I assume) causing an eyesore for many of the surrounding neighbors. If she had put in her back yard to start with, none of this would have happened, and she could have freely kept her garden and been fine. Also, this is COUNTY, in Michigan. So, 1 state, out of 50 (1/50) = 0.2% of the country. Currently, Michigan has 83 counties in it, so 0.2/83 = 0.00024. So, 0.00024% of our country can't have a garden in the FRONT of their house. That hardly seems like "lots of places".

Thirdly, the link you posted said nothing about taking sand, and was from legislature in OREGON, not the US. It said that you may have to pay royalties on the things you build with materials taken from streams, but that they're free to take.

So, now, on to your comparison of China, why don't we compare the two (US and China) over freedoms and rights given innately by their government:

US Freedoms/Rights:

Freedom of religion
Freedom of speech
Freedom of press
Freedom of assembly
Freedom of petition
Freedom from quartering soldiers
Freedom from excessive bail or fines
Freedom from cruel or unusual punishment
Freedom to vote (with a fair, and un-rigged vote (I'm looking at you, middle east))
The right to privacy (as dictated by the Supreme Court)
The right to not be a slave
The right to citizenship of any person born in the US
The right to equal protection of national and state laws
The right to be free of any law that deprives a person life, liberty, or property without due process
The right to vote even if a poll tax or any other tax is unpaid
The right to face your accusers
The right to due process
The right of just compensation for takings
The right to a speedy trial
The right to be informed of the charges you're being accused of
The right to produce witnesses for the accused
The right to a legal counsel
The right to elect who runs your country/county/city/state
The right to a fair and balanced trial in front of a jury of your peers
The right to an impartial judge
The right to non-self-incrimination (i.e. the 5th amendment)
The right to not be tried twice for the same for the same offense (double jeopardy)
The right to bear arms (can be seen as the freedom to own guns)

So far, US = 28 (and these are only in the US constitution and amendments, we're not counting rights that are bestowed upon you by your state/city/county or any other laws that talk about said rights)

Chinese freedoms/rights:

Freedom of Speech (Although this is in their constitution, the Chinese government often uses the subversion of state power and the protection of state secret clause to imprison those who are critical of the government. Not only this, but the government is heavily involved in censoring the news (spoken news), even though no law gives them the power)

Freedom of press (99% of all news must pass through filters, that are read by the government first, in order to go out to the public. Recently, the Freedom house ranked China as "Not Free" in it's annual press freedom survey)

Freedom of movement (This one checks out, however most migrant works are treated as 2nd class citizens)
Freedom of religion (Once again, checks out, however when their current government was taken over, relgious affairs of all types were persecuted and discouraged)
Freedom to vote (Checks out)

Freedoms and rights guaranteed by the government (in the constitution/amendments only) = 5

Not only does China not guarantee even 20% of all the rights the US does, but many of the rights it guarantee's is blatantly taken away from them. In fact, only 3 out of the 5 rights it guarantee's are held up to any degree at all.

Conclusion?:
So if you're count ONLY the number of rights that are held up in comparison of the US to China, it's 28 (US) to 3 (China). That means that the United States Government guarantee's 90% more right's than China at this moment.

Sources (where I actually found ALL of my information):

Side note:
I don't even know if Fox News should count as a valid source for anything besides republicans becoming more entrenched in their own views. Almost everything they say on that show has proven, one way or another, to be a lie.

[/quote]

The Freedom of Speech is ending, HR 347 Makes Protesting anywhere in the United States to be illegal: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeanine-m ... 28205.html

Also, the Patriot Act makes growing a garden illegal. And most of those things, they are trying to make ILLEGAL, right now, just about anything you do makes you a terrorist suspect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 2N1z9zJ20k http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/09/ ... cials.html Right to Privacy? Congress has approved a bill allowing 30,000 Spy drones to be flown above American skies (Violates 4th Amendment rights): http://www.naturalnews.com/034919_spy_d ... lance.html http://digitaljournal.com/article/319564

Un-rigged system? The 2012 votes are supposedly being counted by a company in SPAIN owned by GEORGE SOROS! That is TREASON and it is more likely for VOTER FRAUD! http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-776220 http://www.scribd.com/doc/89464081/12-0 ... d-in-Spain

Our Government hardly goes by the constitution anymore, just look at what our president has done: Obama abused his powers and ATTACKED Libya without congressional Approval (Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/world ... .html?_r=1 Obama has By-passed Congress to Enable the DREAM Act (Unconstitutional to By-Pass Congress, and the Illegals he allowed to become Legal Citizens has Committed over 19 Murders and Over 142 Sex crimes). (Source: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obama-o ... act-video/ and http://www.westernjournalism.com/breaki ... rejection/ ) Signed the National Defence Authorization Act (NDAA) Bill into Law allowing any US citizen to Be Detained WITHOUT trial (A federal Court Blocked it in May because it Violates the Constitution, but Obama is now trying to get it UNBLOCKED!). (Source: http://www.rt.com/usa/news/obama-indefi ... rrest-070/ )

[WallShadow]

O.O




I think it'd be best to move this topic to politics.

[centip3de]

Jesus this needs to be formatted correctly. Anyways, I'll try to address all the points I can find:

The Freedom of Speech is ending, HR 347 Makes Protesting anywhere in the United States to be illegal:

HR 347, does not make it illegal to protest anywhere in the United States, rather, it makes it illegal to protest on any restricted properties... This was already illegal, it's called trespassing. Anyway, it also makes it illegal to protest in or near buildings that the Secret Service is needed, otherwise known as NSSE's. You can still protest anywhere you want, as long as a government figure, that requires the help of Secret Service, aren't in the building or at the place of protest.

Also, the Patriot Act makes growing a garden illegal.

I just finished reading this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act), where exactly does it say that?

And most of those things, they are trying to make ILLEGAL, right now, just about anything you do makes you a terrorist suspect.

Yes, I will agree with you that their definition of a terrorist is extremely broad and needs to be narrowed down. However, in it's current status, there really is no threat to us as a country.

Right to Privacy? Congress has approved a bill allowing 30,000 Spy drones to be flown above American skies (Violates 4th Amendment rights):

Nope, Congress allowed a bill that lets airborne drones become commercially available and licensed by 2015. However, there are estimates that there will be 30,000 drones in the sky by then, though most will be through private companies. And due note that if things such as these impede our rights to privacy, you can take the government itself to the Supreme Court and (with a good case) strike the law from existence.

Un-rigged system? The 2012 votes are supposedly being counted by a company in SPAIN owned by GEORGE SOROS! That is TREASON and it is more likely for VOTER FRAUD!

So, because Americans are no longer counting the votes, it's immediately treason and voter fraud? Lolwut.

(Side note, George Soros is a great guy, he donated "over $8 billion to human rights, public health, and education causes. He played a significant role in the peaceful transition from communism to capitalism in Hungary (1984–89),[7] and provided Europe's largest higher education endowment to Central European University in Budapest.[9] Soros is also the chairman of the Open Society Institute." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros))

Our Government hardly goes by the constitution anymore, just look at what our president has done: Obama abused his powers and ATTACKED Libya without congressional Approval

Yea, this isn't new. "But ever since the Korean War, presidents of both parties have ordered military action without Congressional authorization." that's quoted from the exact same article you claim is your source.

Obama has By-passed Congress to Enable the DREAM Act (Unconstitutional to By-Pass Congress, and the Illegals he allowed to become Legal Citizens has Committed over 19 Murders and Over 142 Sex crimes).

Uh, no, no he didn't. All he did was say that his administration would start turning a blind eye at individuals who met the critera proposed in the DREAM Act, he never passed any laws. Oh, he also opened up this bad boy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_A ... d_Arrivals), however, it clearly states in there that the only way to make 100% legal status is through Congress. Also, if that many people only did that amount of crimes, I'd consider that a lucky day. I'm more than positive more Americans commit those crimes than immigrants (not counting cartels (or war ridden countries)

Signed the National Defence Authorization Act (NDAA) Bill into Law allowing any US citizen to Be Detained WITHOUT trial (A federal Court Blocked it in May because it Violates the Constitution, but Obama is now trying to get it UNBLOCKED!).

You did read that the controversial parts in it, that violated the Constitution, have been stricken from the document, right? That means they no longer exist. In it's current form, all the NDAA does is "determines the agencies responsible for defense, establishes funding levels, and sets the policies under which money will be spent" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_D ... _Year_2013)

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_D ... _Year_2013
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... -near-you/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/world ... .html?_r=1
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112h ... 347enr.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros

[0phidian]

I agree with centip3de for the most part. As much as I love to complain about how far the U.S. is from perfect, comparably it is much better than most places and we have certianly been making progress throughout our history. That being said I think that we should still strive for improvement rather than remain complacent. Declaring a civil war seems pretty radical though and pretty ridiculous, there is no way Anonymous has the resources to pull this off. The only thing they will do is give the government an excuse to take away more freedoms, and the majority of people will think that it is for their own good to protect them from the "scary hackers". I'm certianly for progress, but I think there is a much better way to accomplish this.

[NoviceBlackout]

I think that we should still strive for improvement rather than remain complacent.

Most definitely. Coming from a business background, I am a firm believer that if you're not moving forwards then your are moving backwards.

there is no way Anonymous has the resources to pull this off.

Of course they don't. At most they have the resources to DDOS a few websites. I don't think that is anywhere close to a "civil war"