How would one live in godless world?

What is right? Is there right? Are you right?

Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by Charlieace on Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:35 pm
([msg=21711]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

there would be a lot less wars. people would fear death even more knowing of no afterlife. intelligence would grow rapidly. humanity would evolve quicker with technology. it can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. there would be a hell of lot less suicides with no afterlife.
GET ME OUT OF AMERICA! MOVE ME TO IRELAND! IT LOOKS COOL THERE!

"In a world where stupidity has become the normal, it is better to be strange."

The Internet is my classroom.

Silence is the enemy.
Charlieace
Experienced User
Experienced User
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:57 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by radicool_systemite on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:10 am
([msg=21765]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

To the Americans, the Japanese seem like fanatic lunatics who kept fighting long after they should have, and were cruel to prisoners, while the Japanese saw the Americans as cowards who surrendered way before they should, and seem to expect not to be killed when they did so. All because of there views on death.


I'm not sure that your example really fits the context. How the two sides viewed each other is a matter of opinion, which is different from how they should, in reality, be treating one another, according to the golden rule. For example, I may have a problem with someone who uses the word "fuck" and that person may think I'm a prudish prick for having such a problem. That is a difference of opinion on "culturally offensive" language. But according to the Golden rule there should be a way forward through the disagreement. If I don't like being told what I can and cannot say, then I should not be telling others what they can and cannot say. If the "fuck" guy does not like people saying things which are offensive to him, then he should not be purposely saying things which he knows will offend others.

In the case of the American/Japanese conflict, BOTH sides did not really want to die, so both sides should have stopped killing one another, according to the golden rule. The fact that both sides went on killing each other based on cultural differences is an indication that the golden rule was very far from their thinking. I know the theory sounds simplistic, but that is also part of the beauty of it. It only works via a conscious effort to make it work.

I think your death penalty example is also a better example of a difference of opinion, rather than an example of how the golden rule does (or does not) work. Perhaps I've misunderstood how you are applying the example to "do to others what you would have them do to you". If one person prefers to spend life in a cell, while the other person prefers to die quickly, then both parties should treat the other as they would want to be treated (i.e. if one party wants to opt for a particular punishment, then that party should be okay with the OTHER party also being free to opt for whatever punishment they want).
User avatar
radicool_systemite
Experienced User
Experienced User
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:58 am
Blog: View Blog (0)


Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by Mentalikryst on Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:31 pm
([msg=21788]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

To religious people in general morals and ethics come from the belief that they will be rewarded by a higher being. To Atheists/Non-Religeous people, morals and ethics come from the belief that you must do the right thing.
User avatar
Mentalikryst
New User
New User
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:23 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by radicool_systemite on Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:06 am
([msg=21875]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

To religious people in general morals and ethics come from the belief that they will be rewarded by a higher being.


Does this statement come as a result of some personal experience?

To Atheists/Non-Religeous people, morals and ethics come from the belief that you must do the right thing.


I don't think that is a fair comment. The Bible says that true religion is to help orphans and widows. I know a lot of religious people who do this because they actually care about the widows and orphans and not as a result of some reward in Heaven.

While rewards are not a BAD reason to do good, I don't think rewards are the only reason religious people do good.
User avatar
radicool_systemite
Experienced User
Experienced User
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:58 am
Blog: View Blog (0)


Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by Warweredeclared on Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:48 am
([msg=22349]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

Radicool, while yes, you are right, both my examples were examples of a matter of opinion issue, my point was that "how you would wish to be treated" is a matter of opinion. The point i was really trying to make is that you shouldn't treat people the way you want to be treated, you should treat them the way THEY want to be treated. I'm not saying that the golden rule is horrible (its sure better than the "treat people however I want to treat them approach that so many people seem to be taking these days), I'm just saying that i think there is an even better approach than that.
All things that are, are ours. But we must care. For if we do not care, we do not exist. If we do not exist, than there is nothing but blind oblivion...
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man? -Terry Pratchett's Reaper Man
Warweredeclared
New User
New User
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:10 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by radicool_systemite on Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:27 am
([msg=22385]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

Hi War, (feels a bit weird calling you that!)

The point i was really trying to make is that you shouldn't treat people the way you want to be treated, you should treat them the way THEY want to be treated.


I don't actually see a difference between these two points. You say that we should not treat people the way we want to be treated. I'm not quite sure if I understand your reasoning here, but I'll give an example of what I think you MAY be talking about.

Someone once told me that the golden rule does not really work because it says we should treat others as we would want to be treated. He used an example of sadomasochists. If I like to be beaten for pleasure, then I should also go out and beat others for pleasure. However the key word here is PLEASURE, whereas this guy was trying to say that the important part was the METHOD through which that pleasure was derived. The way the rule works in the example would go something like this...I like receiving pleasure, so I should be careful that I am not doing something which stops other people from also receiving the pleasure they like. The method through which that pleasure is gained can be anything; but the point is that both sides are using their OWN understanding of getting what they want to ensure that the other person also gets what they want.

If we don't start with ourselves, then we have no basis of fair judgment in deciding how to treat the other person. It's like, the golden rule understands that humans will just naturally tend to look out for themselves first, but it seeks to change that naturally selfish tendency into an unnatural behavior by directing those tendencies outward and applying them to others. It is, in fact, a learned discipline.


You say that we should, instead, treat people the way they want to be treated. I agree, but what I am saying is that we gain a better understanding of how others want to be treated by first measuring it up with how we would like to be treated. For example, it's clear that you would like people to ask your opinion on how you like things to be done. We would call that being considerate. Based on that understanding of yourself, you should also be considerate to others, but you only know that because you experienced it within yourself as a pleasurable way to interact with others.

Even if someone is stubborn and argues that he does not want to be treated considerately then we should treat him how he wants to be treated, but only because we first understood that it's pleasurable to get what we want, and thus we know it is pleasurable for others to get what they want.
User avatar
radicool_systemite
Experienced User
Experienced User
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:58 am
Blog: View Blog (0)


Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by Warweredeclared on Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:20 am
([msg=22636]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

First off, i just want to say that your questions over the course of this discussion have caused me to re-examine, reorganize, and think extensively about my thoughts and beliefs, and i just wanted to thank you for that. Also, thank you for coming up with an better example for my own argument than i did (i thought of masochists a few hours later and kicked myself for not using the example, when i came back to add it, lo and behold you did it for me).

I feel i should apologize, or at least step back. I don't think we have a huge difference of opinion here. Its just that, as a sever cynic and general distruster(making up words is fun) of people, i tend to get my hackles up when people use idealistic phrases like that. Having studied what history i have, and from my own personal experiences, i have seen far to many people use such noble thoughts for very twisted ends. But for me to project that on you is unfair, and i apologize. I was never really arguing the truth or beauty of the words themselves, I just saw too much potential for them to be misused.
All things that are, are ours. But we must care. For if we do not care, we do not exist. If we do not exist, than there is nothing but blind oblivion...
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man? -Terry Pratchett's Reaper Man
Warweredeclared
New User
New User
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:10 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by Iskaralpust on Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:59 pm
([msg=22711]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

Mortecai4 wrote:Does a world with no god mean no morals?


Nope. Doesn't mean that at all. I'm pretty sure a world with no religion would be, if anything, more dedicated to morals as it would invariably be a place of greater intellectual prosperity and smart people usually don't degrade themselves by committing crimes.

An atheist would do the right thing simply because he values to the rules society has in place, or maybe he's simply a dedicated humanist. A religious person could simply be doing the right thing because he wants to get on the good side of his omnipotent stalker.

Also, didn't really read all the responses, but the one above me a little ways regarding the "treating people the way THEY wanna be treated," or some such thing, is the whole subject of a lecture by Bertrand Russell, published in the book "Why I am Not a Christian in which he basically says Christianity's love of suffering and self degradation is a type of rationalized sadism. Lol, good stuff.
Iskaralpust
New User
New User
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:51 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by Spectre557 on Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:16 am
([msg=22738]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

Mortecai4 wrote:How would one live life in a godless world?

Freely and without fear.

Mortecai4 wrote:Should one remain ethical and reasonable, or should on just tear the world apart with anarchy?
Does a world with no god mean no morals?

You don't have to be terrified of existing in perpetual torment for all eternity, just to have some moral values.

Plenty of people are too ignorant or too badly brainwashed to understand living without being told what to do; it's something so deeply embedded in their psyche that they can't possibly imagine anything other than total mindless thralldom to their religion... Despite massive self-contradictions, absolutely no proper evidence, and ridiculous assumptions, people actually buy the crap from religions because it's the norm. Those are the people who couldn't deal with it.
Current obsession: Minecraft
User avatar
Spectre557
Poster
Poster
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:04 am
Blog: View Blog (0)


Re: How would one live in godless world?

Post by IronWraith on Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:27 am
([msg=22739]see Re: How would one live in godless world?[/msg])

Mortecai4 wrote:How would one live life in a godless world?


It's hard to picture because so much of the world has been shaped by some form of belief in God. Religion has shaped so much of history that the world would defiantly be a lot different without the belief in God. And although not all people agree on this, there are quite a few people who keep there lives in check based on the hope they have in there God. Different people would handle a godless world in different ways. For instances where did the idea of morals originate? Why would someone have gone through the trouble of constantly trying to do "good" if there wasn't some kind of reward in the end? So, possibly morals would not exist at all in a godless world. In that case the world could be a place where everyone does what they want at all times without the thought of whether it was moral or not to administrate their actions. This is strictly an opinion though.
User avatar
IronWraith
New User
New User
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:56 am
Blog: View Blog (0)


PreviousNext

Return to Ethics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests