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There is several topics about Communism - the socio-economic system that exists only in theory. So let's talk about the world we live in. The real world. Lets talk about Capitalism.

First of all, what you learned in school about capitalism? I think that capitalism is rarely mentioned in school no matter where you attend school. Even if it was mentioned somewhere that was more along the way and in the best light. Someone might even get the impression that capitalism is perfection. You ask yourself why this is so (I think they are rare exceptions).

I will not talk about things that are already known to everyone.

Let me tell you mine view on capitalism however it seemed incredibly to someone. Capitalism is the modern slavery. Historically, almost every slave society passed into feudalism and from feudalism to capitalism. Feudalism was also a form of slavery. We do not have change of socio-economic system through history, it seems to me that we actually have the development of slavery not development of civil society. Even if it has popped up occasionally the development of civil society, it was a side effect of development of slavery.

What we now really do? How we live? When you finish school, which is functionalist orientation, you become profiled person, shaped and ready to be implemented to system. This means that your next 35 years of life will be the job. Almost everyday from 9 to 5 you are going to do everything your manager says. Actually you will do whatever capitalists demands for money. Eight hours of sleep, eight hours of work, often 10 hours of work, hour or two the road from home to work and back, and how much time do you have for your free and independent life?

Once upon a time in the slavery (In old Greece, Rome and so), slaveholders (slavers) had to look for slaves (they had to buy them on the slave market), slaves were goods that had cost, slavers had to learn slaves how to work, slavers had to have slave-drivers to control and guard the slaves (slaves were often united and rebelled against the slave owners making their lives threatened), after all, slave owners had to worry about the health of slaves (ill slave cant work), slave owners had to feed slaves, to build facilities where the slaves sleep and so on. Slaves were property of slave owners so they take care of them enough to make them obey and to be able to work. Slaveholders were slaves treated like animals and forced to work till you drop.

After several thousand years the system is improved. Today, a slave owner does not have to worry about anything. Today, slaves are learning how to work themselves, slaves voluntarily looking for slave-owners who will hire them to work, slaves themselves make their home, slaves control themselves and control other slaves, slaves doing everything voluntarily. Slave owners today have nothing to worry about. The system is automated. It's called capitalism. Just, today we have no longer slaves and slave-owners. We have workers and capitalists. A former slave market today is called the labor market.

In the old slavery, slave rebellions were frequent and the system was maintain by slave-owners. Today, system has progressed and slave revolt are now very rare, and often poorly organized.

So it's hard to find a substantial difference between slavery and capitalism.

Will be continued...

TL:DR.
Dude.. I respect your opinions and all, but I this IS a hacking forum.. Idunno, maybe it's just me, but there are plenty of ethical forums out there...
But nah, capitalism, runs the world, don't like it, deal wid it. Yeah. Idunno if this was more of a informative posting or not.. If you want, you could probably actually contribute some of your ethical knowledge through an article. Hence the

Will be continued...

mShred wrote:TL:DR.
Dude.. I respect your opinions and all, but I this IS a hacking forum.. Idunno, maybe it's just me, but there are plenty of ethical forums out there...
But nah, capitalism, runs the world, don't like it, deal wid it. Yeah. Idunno if this was more of a informative posting or not.. If you want, you could probably actually contribute some of your ethical knowledge through an article. Hence the

Will be continued...

HTS created an entire forum topic for a post like this.

As for OP, TL:DR, might read it later, too tired now. I have mixed feelings about capitalism, not because of any ethical delima. I just wonder what would better suit me, lol.

I for one read it all and I'm hoping you'll do the same

I think what you put is great, it looks like a mix of Marx, Chomsky, and others. I do think capitalism is correct for someone who want's money, but I also think it's wrong if you want to keep your morals intact.

Two things,

1. Working isn't slavery in the sense Marx and Chomsky put it. It can only really be "slavery" if the person was forced into doing something they didn't want to do. If someone wants a fancy car so they say to themselves, "Ok, I'll go into big debt and work my a$$ off at this minimum wage job." That's their fault. If they find they made a bad decision they can default the loan, get it taken, and use public transportation, buy a bike (which I use both by the way), or buy a much cheaper car. If you really hate your job, quit, or work really part-time, and then adjust to live within your means (I live off spanish rice and cupped soup). If you have kids, get a part-time and get food stamps and what not, BUT realize you will probably be living in the ghetto and things like that. I really, although I tend to agree with their philosophies, think they use the term "slavery" as a (and I know Marx is dead) marketing ploy to garner attention. Whether they think so or not.

2. Capitalism has almost no morality in it. When we look at the basic assumption of capitalism it states we humans are motivated by profit. Here's where people like Chomsky (and myself) say, "no". Cause people like us anarchist say we humans are not motivated by profit, but by happiness. We do things that make us happy. If it makes you feel good that you saved a strangers life because you helped make your country have universal health care then that's great!

Capitalism and Libertarianism kind of mix so let me say one more thing.

The other views these two positions hold is:

Q? When are we obligated to aid others in need?
A? When we caused the persons needs.

Q? When is it recommended to aid others in need?
A? -When it is profitable.
- When it's not burdensome (easy, cheap, rare)
- When it's someone you know & naturally care about as the favor is likely to be returned.

There, now that you have that laid out, let me say this:

So when a big company from the Europe goes to Ethiopia and ruins their soil cause they planted nothing but peanuts and coffee, and now Ethiopians can't grow crops and they starve should they be responsible to aid them? F*uck yes they should, but they don't as it's not cheap and no where near profitable. But THEY f*ckin' caused this!

If you seen a little girl collapse into unconsciousness face down into a puddle of water waiting to drown and you seem me pass by and I thought to myself, "Hmm, if I help this girl, I will be late to my business venture and loose out on $1,000,000." and I ran right pass her, what would you think of me? That's right, a f*ckin' sociopath. That's what capitalism and libertarianism (not purposely) promotes. So when I hear someone say don't tax me more so that tens of thousands of little boys and girls and adults don't have to die from health problems or wouldn't want to be taxed to prevent the starvation of little boys and girls and adults in third world countries, I hope they realize how heartless and twisted they are. Cause just like in my example, they are actually saying, I'D RATHER HAVE THESE LITTLE KIDS DIE THEN BE TAXED. I'd rather let this little girl die in this puddle of water then loose my money. I hope one day many people can realize this and I hope it makes them swell with regret and empathy for how they used to be. Like myself...

Yup...

@Microelite7711

Nice debate of yours.

Yes, it is mix of classical theory, but I'm actually talking from my experience (something that you can see), trying to avoid theory.

Your first thing is story of possibilities in capitalism - how to live. But, again, they all are kind of slavery. No one want to live poor life. Whatever work you find - full time or part-time its a work and you ARE worker (slave). You DO whatever they say you to do. Of course you are not forced to do - but you are indirectly forced by the system (after all you must do anything to get money in order to survive). You simply can not escape the system - that's the point. System is made that you can't escape it. You are the part of the system and you can not live without the system.

But that system is not made by me or you or someone like us - system is made by the ruling class. And in my opinion, system is ruled by the money. And those people who control the money are the real rulers - Bankers.

Ask yourself what you know about money like - you will soon realize that almost nothing has been mentioned in official schools. Think why? We learn all sorts of things in schools but we learn nothing about the most important thing. It is something for which we all work tomorrow... from 9 to 5 and tomorrow again, and again, and just for it... piece of paper. And we are lucky when they at the end of month give us bunch of papers. That's how will live everyone of us slaves... we will work, work and work. But we never ask ourselves how this money system actually works...

It is not a matter that should be taught in schools. That is something that people do not need to know. They need just to learn how to work, and when they learn to work, they need just to work and work till they get old - their whole life.

People can not see the big picture of the system. Someone made ​​sure that this is so. It's stupid to say that the system itself was created. There are certainly people who manage its development.

And there is a stratification of society - its a pyramidal society. There are some persons that do nothing that you do, but they have $$billions. capitalist society can be represented graphically like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _color.jpg

About second thing. Truth. Capitalism has almost no morality in it - I agree with your statement totally. The world in which we live has become one big black hole full of contrasts, lies and mistrust. What you're talking about is not a tragedy anymore. Actually, there is no tragedy anymore in the original sense. Just look at what people write on this forum.

See generally public opinion. Idiotic bunch of surprises. Preoccupation with issues that have absolutely no relevance either for their own life or the lives of others.

These are the people who support wars, murders. They celebrate such things - these are victories for them. These are people who are happy that Osama Bin Laden was killed (because they heard the TV news that he was killed) and, beside him, killed and expelled several million people. People celebrate such events. These are people who did not shaken by the fact that millions of people have been killed in the Middle East in the last 20 years. People who are willing to sacrifice thousands of Americans because of one Bin Laden and then celebrate the victory. It is actually a general attitude of most people in the world no matter where they live. And you're trying to tell them the story of a little girl who drowned (!?). It's a pathetic world we live in. It is a world where tragedy does not make sense - because the world has become essentially a tragic. The world itself is a tragedy.

Some will say that this is all coincidence. Well, I would still say that the whole society has been systematically shaped by small group of rulers.

Interesting (old)discussion, I'm bored this week and since you revived it I'm gonna jump in.

As someone with a family in former communist countries and myself being from one of the great examples of capitalism(European version, not the American extreme) my views on this seem somewhat unorthodox.

I'm a fan of the views of Ayn Rand(came from communism, and loved capitalism) at at the same time of George Orwell (socialist who fought fascism in the Spanish civil war, only to also end up battleing his communist "allies" and thus Spain was conquered by Franco).
Both of these ware great writers who's real life had permanently changed their view and understanding of the world.
And I think that me liking both their ideas makes me by definition kinda insane.. but thats besides the point.
I like capitalism and at the same time the average American might call me a dirty socialist.

I don't believe that capitalism is slavery, in itself it seems like a system that will allow anyone who is willing to eather work hard or work smart to get out on top while at the same time creating plenty of opportunities for others to make a living.
The core basis of this is that both parties (buyer/seller, employer/employee) enter an agreement with full knowledge of all facts that will benefit them both.
Both of them have the obligation to get the best deal possible WITHOUT trying to lie or withhold information.
This is the core tenant that is often broken, where people are trying to get the best deal possible by means of scamming the other. That is not the point of capitalism but of crime, but often enough this is considered legal.

There is in my opinion modern day slavery, but this is usualy based on debt, not capitalism in itself. The principle of this is that if someone owes you money, you own them until they pay it back. Make the debt large enough so they can't possibly pay you back and then you own them for life. If you're one of those people who wants to own someone else then this method is best done on a large scale: give a country a loan and demand the money only be used on development of corporations of your own nation, along with overstating how much growth that development will create and no mather how many generations pass they will owe you money and will have to follow your rules.
This is done time and time again to countries who have natural resources by countries who want them often with horrible consequences.
This always passes as capitalism but as stated before is simply legalized crime.
On the other hand, making loans illegal like in medieval times also seems like a bad idea.(based on religious rules: jews had no problem with it and is part of the cause of the irrational hate. knights templar also didn't care which is why they had money and why the king of france who was hugely in debt had them.. taken care of)
People should be able to get loans, or give loans. Just make sure they are rational and informed choices.
Don't indiscriminately loan to anyone, but hear them out and make an informed decision. If they end up not being able to pay you back it can be because of your lack of judgement or interest in their situation, or because they lied and overstated their future proffits(possibly because they have bad judgement in their own situation).
And don't get yourself in debt because you want the fancy car, you're just screwing yourself over and I have no sympathy for these people.

The ruining of countries is ofcourse an extreme example, so lets look at another extreme like old world communism.
This was truly modern slavery: you own nothing, you will work where told, you live where you are told, you will eat what you are told and you will speak what you are told. Break any of those statements and you will be 're-educated'. During re-education you will basically have to follow the same rules but in worse conditions and they get to hurt or kill you if its not good enough. I dislike the idea that if everything belongs to everyone, everyone is rich. People stopped caring, stopped taking pride in their work and did the absolute minimum required to not get killed. The basic human nature of improving your life in every way possible was stomped out of people, some not even having basic survival instincts and would rather die from a lack of handouts then plant some potatoes.

I think the problem isn't always with these ideas or even systems themselves, but with the extremes people take them to. In my opinion if your belief system requires you to cheat, threaten, hurt of kill anyone, you're doing it wrong and should re-evaluate your values.

Now I am not a fan of giving handouts to someone that is capable of more but would rather live with less. It seems like they lack survival instincts so I'd rather have darwin deal with it. At the same time I have absolutely no problem that I have to pay taxes, and the more money I make the more taxes I pay. Especialy for things like basic infrastructure(roads, water, public buildings, public safety), education and for universal healthcare/social security for all so those that have troubles will be helped.
I am lucky to live in a country where we have these things, where if I get sick I will be helped regardless of the cost and regardless of how long it takes to get better. Untill I was 18 my schools ware free, and afterwards they ware still considerably cheaper then in other countries. I have had to live on food handed out for free by non profit organizations and am truly grateful that we have these systems in place, and was quite upset when Europe decided to cut their funding in half.

Getting back on topic... Although work isn't always fun, and not everyone wants to work, everyone does want to live. If you hunt your food, grow your food, or work for your food I see very little difference in this motivation. All these methods can be enjoyed and you can take pride in what you do.
And I don't see anything wrong with trying to collect more then you need, seems like basic survival to gather more for times of need and to ensure your offspring will have the best possible chance of survival.
If you don't want to work, farm or hunt for your food then in my eyes you're darwins problem and people should just leave you alone so the situation can solve itself. On the other hand if you CAN'T do these things, its our duty as people and as a society to try and help out in any way possible.

And maybe more importantly, don't let anyone tell you what to do or think. If your government does something you don't agree with, fight it and make sure you get heard before its too late. And when they go to extremes... remember that you have the power to revolt, they can only do what you allow them to do.

TL;DR; All systems suck in extremes, live within your means, and care for those in bad situations and row row fight tha powah!

weekend hacker wrote:There is in my opinion modern day slavery, but this is usualy based on debt, not capitalism in itself. The principle of this is that if someone owes you money, you own them until they pay it back. Make the debt large enough so they can't possibly pay you back and then you own them for life. If you're one of those people who wants to own someone else then this method is best done on a large scale: give a country a loan and demand the money only be used on development of corporations of your own nation, along with overstating how much growth that development will create and no mather how many generations pass they will owe you money and will have to follow your rules.
This is done time and time again to countries who have natural resources by countries who want them often with horrible consequences.
This always passes as capitalism but as stated before is simply legalized crime.
On the other hand, making loans illegal like in medieval times also seems like a bad idea.(based on religious rules: jews had no problem with it and is part of the cause of the irrational hate. knights templar also didn't care which is why they had money and why the king of france who was hugely in debt had them.. taken care of)
People should be able to get loans, or give loans. Just make sure they are rational and informed choices.
Don't indiscriminately loan to anyone, but hear them out and make an informed decision. If they end up not being able to pay you back it can be because of your lack of judgement or interest in their situation, or because they lied and overstated their future proffits(possibly because they have bad judgement in their own situation).
And don't get yourself in debt because you want the fancy car, you're just screwing yourself over and I have no sympathy for these people.

You mean something like this> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVsB07CcSNw

All day slavery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXOZLXNQ-KM

Yes, that is slave machinery. Its a slavery on a large scale. It's like a new way to conquer the world. Well, in my opinion its a capitalism - not something that is not part of the capitalism. Its more accurate to say that the modern slavery is based on debt which is caused by private banking system - true. But it IS capitalism - If there were no private banks then there would not be capitalism.

Bankers and other money managers (people who control the money, and therefore the economy) they are the real masters "the great architect of the universe". Lets take those quotes as a proof.

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild (1744-1812)

"There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt." — President John Adams (1735-1826)

"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies" — Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826)

"Neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities, intrinsically, a 'dollar' bill is just
a piece of paper. Deposits are merely book entries." — Modern Money Mechanics Workbook,
Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, 1975

The bast way to make money is to make a WAR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoimzqUqm8E

weekend hacker wrote:The ruining of countries is ofcourse an extreme example, so lets look at another extreme like old world communism.
This was truly modern slavery: you own nothing, you will work where told, you live where you are told, you will eat what you are told and you will speak what you are told. Break any of those statements and you will be 're-educated'. During re-education you will basically have to follow the same rules but in worse conditions and they get to hurt or kill you if its not good enough. I dislike the idea that if everything belongs to everyone, everyone is rich. People stopped caring, stopped taking pride in their work and did the absolute minimum required to not get killed. The basic human nature of improving your life in every way possible was stomped out of people, some not even having basic survival instincts and would rather die from a lack of handouts then plant some potatoes.

Well... It is true that Communism was a totalitarian dictatorship. No communist world has never truly existed. There are only people, the so-called revolutionaries, who get the support of the majority of people with the idea of ​​communism. Then they set up a dictatorship without interest in anything but their power.

footyfrak wrote:Well... It is true that Communism was a totalitarian dictatorship. No communist world has never truly existed. There are only people, the so-called revolutionaries, who get the support of the majority of people with the idea of ​​communism. Then they set up a dictatorship without interest in anything but their power.

So true, there have been attempts though..
But it seems if different flavors group together to revolt.. they eventually end up fighting among themselves for power.
For instance during the spanish civil war, while at first the different socialist/Marxist/anarchists/communist parties ware all "friends" and ware fighting the fascist Franco, an enemy to all their ideals. They ended up attacking each other and some might say this is why they lost and Franco was in power for way way too long (Spanish education is still tainted by his ways).

footyfrak wrote:Yes, that is slave machinery. Its a slavery on a large scale. It's like a new way to conquer the world. Well, in my opinion its a capitalism - not something that is not part of the capitalism. Its more accurate to say that the modern slavery is based on debt which is caused by private banking system - true. But it IS capitalism - If there were no private banks then there would not be capitalism.

Although this is THE way of creating modern day slavery, I would disagree it is capitalism.
Financial markets are part of it but capitalism also requires honesty and mutual benefit.
These ways of creating debt are based on dishonesty, which is part of plain old crime. And the loan scheme used in this way is a traditional method employed by the mafia. Capitalism required an informed agreement of both parties which we can't say happened in those cases.
Yet these kinds of behaviors are often thought of as prime examples of capitalism, which I find kind of sad.
Even calling it capitalism seems to me as justification of this behavior. If we called it what it is, a crime, maybe people would be more inclined to stop it.
Attempting to make it part of capitalism and by extension making capitalism criminal is never going to change anything.

On a side note: although I found "Confessions of an economic hitman" a very interesting book, I remember checking up on the references mentioned in zeitgeist and they really seemed to cherry pick their examples and ignored other things to suit their needs. Which I guess is an efficient way to get your message across but they lost some credibility in my eyes. (their main point of course remains an important one, their potential solutions... not so much)

I hope more people start calling governments and multinationals out on their crimes and force them to adjust.
And by that I mean really adjust, not just start out with good ideas for good laws and then allow those laws to get lobbied to bits.(like the new laws regarding financial markets)

PS: bet you never thought to find someone attempt to defend capitalism on these forums

I have to say, I am a supporter of Communism, however, I realize the fact that it would take drastic changes in average human quality to succeed.
Capitalism, however, does tend to lead to groomed lives. We only live variations of the same day over and over, sometimes with big variations, sometimes with small ones, sometimes it's just repitition.
However, here's my motto: You can't control the flow of the world, but, if you're a clever one, you'll know how to use it to your advantage. Think about Ford. He invented cars, using Capitalism's economy to his advantage. Think about any person that did something great, and how Capitalism's nature to protect owners of a product was used to their advantage to gain fame, money, status, and so on. Be clever, and you'll achieve what you want in any situation.