Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

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Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by RedSoxNation on Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:57 pm
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I would like to know the arguments that people have to prove that God doesn't/does exist.
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Re: Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by notstephencolbert on Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:56 pm
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I personally am athiest. And my reasoning behind it is this,

We are all made of atoms, chemicals and the such. EVERY atom in the universe is in a certain spot doing one thing at this very moment. The brain works chemically (to my understanding). So if every atom is in a certain spot right now every chemical reaction is bound to happen. Therefore there is no free will. Everything that is going to happen is bound to happen. Including whether or not you believe in god. If there is a god and I do not believe in him I supposedly go to hell. Well that makes no sense with my logic. Because there is no free will. So it seems illogical that s/he may exist. And if s/he does exist everyone gets the same after life IMHO.
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Re: Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by RedSoxNation on Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:43 pm
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Argument for God:

Proof of God - Intelligent Design
What would constitute objective proof of God? Well, consider the following self-evident and universally recognized truth: Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer. It's simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself.

We know that design necessitates a designer. In fact, in accordance with this fundamental axiom, design detection methodology is a prerequisite in many fields of human endeavor, including archaeology, anthropology, forensics, criminal jurisprudence, copyright law, patent law, reverse engineering, crypto analysis, random number generation, and SETI. And how do we recognize intelligent design? In general, we find "specified complexity" to be a reliable indicator of the presence of intelligent design. Chance can explain complexity alone but not specification -- a random sequence of letters is complex but not specified (it's meaningless). A Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified (it's meaningful). We can't have a Shakespearean sonnet without Shakespeare. (William A. Dembski, The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities, 1998.)

Proof of God - Nature
So where's the proof of God's existence? In accordance with our familiar axiom and in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics and information theory, the proof of God is all around us!

Through the microscope, we observe the E. coli bacterial flagellum. The bacterial flagellum is what propels E. coli bacteria through its microscopic world. It consists of about 40 individual protein parts including a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It's a microscopic outboard motor! The individual parts come into focus when magnified 50,000 times (using electron micrographs). And even though these microscopic outboard motors run at an incredible 100,000 rpm, they can stop on a microscopic dime. It takes only a quarter turn for them to stop, shift directions and start spinning 100,000 rpm in the opposite direction! The flagellar motor has two gears (forward and reverse), is water-cooled, and is hardwired into a signal transduction (sensory mechanism) so that it receives feedback from its environment. ("Unlocking the Mystery of Life," video documentary by Illustra Media, 2002.)

When we apply the general principles of detecting specified complexity to biologic systems (living creatures), we find it reasonable to infer the presence intelligent design. Take, for example, the bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not convenient that we've given these parts these names - that's truly their function. If you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, machine, toy or model, you would recognize them as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect an outboard motor -- much less one as incredible as the flagellar motor -- to be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. Motors are the product of intelligent design.

Furthermore, the E. coli bacterial flagellum simply could not have evolved gradually over time. The bacterial flagellum is an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. There is absolutely no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the bacterial flagellum. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, 1996.)

The bacterial flagellum (not to mention the irreducibly complex molecular machines responsible for the flagellum's assembly) is just one example of the specified complexity that pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." (Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1986, p. 250.)

Proof of God - His Fingerprints are Everywhere
Where is the proof of God? If we're willing to open our eyes, we'll see the fingerprints of God all around us and all throughout us. Our very existence proves the existence of a Creator God.

I got this article from http://www.allaboutcreation.org/proof-of-god.htm
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Re: Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by notstephencolbert on Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:26 pm
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RedSoxNation;

Yes you wouldn't be able to make an engine randomly your first try. But bacteria is simply amazing. Imagine you tried trillions and trillions of times to make an engine. Eventually you would make an extremely well made engine. This my friend is what we call Evolution.

Just curious if anyone has a counter argument for my reasoning.
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Re: Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by OneArrow on Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:11 am
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notstephencolbert wrote:We are all made of atoms, chemicals and the such. EVERY atom in the universe is in a certain spot doing one thing at this very moment. The brain works chemically (to my understanding). So if every atom is in a certain spot right now every chemical reaction is bound to happen. Therefore there is no free will. Everything that is going to happen is bound to happen. Including whether or not you believe in god. If there is a god and I do not believe in him I supposedly go to hell. Well that makes no sense with my logic. Because there is no free will. So it seems illogical that s/he may exist. And if s/he does exist everyone gets the same after life IMHO.


There are two things that I disagree with here. First, it is based upon the assumption that our understanding of science is complete. As we are still learning, discovering, and revising what we know as a race, and so many of the components and models of understanding are interdependent, it is safe to say that the jury is still out on everything we know and understand so far. Using science to refute religion is like using religion to refute science - we may think we have a good idea, but at the end of the day, it is just theory and speculation.

Second, it does not take into account the fact that humans are self-aware. Unlike purely deterministic systems that act entirely upon stimulus and response, we have the ability to examine our own thought processes - to see the gap between stimulus and response, action and reaction, and rewrite ourselves through our actions as we see fit. Unfortunately, not many fully develop the ability to do so.
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Re: Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by thedotmaster on Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:00 am
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I shall relate this to hacking :P
Let's say that I'm brute forcing a hash..
I will get through millions of possible combinations before I get my password out.
Now I think it is sort of similar in relation to evolution etc.
Furthermore, the E. coli bacterial flagellum simply could not have evolved gradually over time. The bacterial flagellum is an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. There is absolutely no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the bacterial flagellum. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, 1996.)

Now think about how many E Coli bacteria there are on the planet now and then think about how many there were a few days ago and then the whole of last year etc etc. In all of time, I am sure there will have been trillions of trillions of trillions of E coli on the planet.
Now like that hash, when there are so many possible combinations tried at high speed, eventually one will fit and will work. It is the same with evolution.
Those that cannot live, die.
Those that have an advantage over their environment or predator are more likely to survive.
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Re: Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by doubleman on Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:47 pm
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Survival of the fittest doesn't mean that evolution is real. It just means that certain species will live while others die. Even in our earth today, anything that has been done has been done by something. Without a thing to act, there is no action, and there is no result. Nothing can't come from nothing unless someone makes something come from nothing (God). Did planets collide? Well who made the planets? Did we evolve from a cell? What made that cell? I believe God created man in 7 days.

A good book for everyone to read would be Ravi Zacharias's "can man live without God".

Lee Strobel's "The case for the creator" goes along the lines of intelligent design. It exposes how science once said that there was no God, and now it is saying that there has to be a God. It has facts in it, kind of like the facts a poster was trying to explain. Though I didn't read all of it, I'll possibly read it later.
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Re: Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by Rijnzael on Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:18 pm
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I always had a problem with the assessment that deism and evolution are necessarily exclusive in the minds of many people on both sides of the issue. If, under the existence of something so arbitrary as a God, 'god' was all-knowing and all-foreseeing, then it's entirely possible the said god would have itself designed evolution as a low-maintenance way to ensure the emergence and self-preservation of life.
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Re: Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by ELorenz on Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:50 am
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Given that there are people who will doubt facts on anything even when faced with proof, I would say that when you get into gray areas of little or no proof people take what they feel like as proof. I can say that the fact that the existence of gravity and humanity are proof that a God exists, or I can say that the sky is blue is proof that there is no God. Both are equally valid arguments.

I would question those who write books on the concept and designs made by a being that knows everything and has the capability to do anything conceivable/unconceivable as to how they know they have the right concept of God. What if the true God is something that the human mind simply can't fathom. Many people have issues with the concept of infinity, which compared to the concept of a God like one described in religions would be simplistic to the point of laughable in comparison.

I don't know either way about the existence or non existence, there is no proof, until God actually comes to earth in plain view for everyone to see, and shows that it is God. The only way to find out for sure that I know of is to die, and I'm willing to wait as long as I'm supposed to for that to find out. As for the citation of the bible as proof, the bible was written by people who were told stories, try telling somebody a story and then have them write down the story a few days later without retelling them and see how close it is.
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Re: Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

Post by ELorenz on Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:00 am
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RedSoxNation wrote:Argument for God:

Proof of God - Intelligent Design
What would constitute objective proof of God? Well, consider the following self-evident and universally recognized truth: Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer.


So this argument is a lot like saying that a comes before b because if b didn't come after a then a wouldn't come before b therefore we have proved that a comes before b. You can't do that in a logical argument. There are so many things wrong here that it's annoying as hell.
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