what is your opinion in quran burning?

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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by Vulpine on Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:05 pm
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Calian wrote:
Religion is a crutch for weak and scared


So your telling me because I don't believe that I evolved from a fish, an believe that there is more to my existance than that, I'm weak and scared? I'd like to say thats a load of shit.


I believe Tremor is trying to make the point that theists find comfort, reassurance, strength, guidance, and a multitude of other boons, from external spiritual entities. Remove said spirituality and you are left with an individual who has no compass for navigating life on their own.

Suppose you really want a promotion at work. Will you pray to God for it? Most Judeo-Christians would. If you're smart though, you know that God won't just drop it in your lap, you need to go work for it. So you do. Upon achieving what you set out to, do you thank God, or do you thank yourself?

One of my favorite lines from literature kind of sums it up from a slightly different point of view:

"Do you believe in God, Andrei? No. Neither do I. But that's a favorite question of mine. An upside-down question, you know. What do you mean? Well, if I asked people whether they believed in life, they'd never understand what I meant. It's a bad question. It can mean so much that it really means nothing. So I ask them if they believe in God. And if they say they do -- then, I know they don't believe in life. Why? Because, you see, God -- whatever anyone chooses to call God -- is one's highest conception of the highest possible. And whoever places his highest conception above his own possibility thinks very little of himself and his life. It's a rare gift, you know, to feel reverence for your own life and to want the best, the greatest, the highest possible, here, now, for your very own." -- We The Living

Calian wrote:You tell a child that they evolved from some random protein strings coming together an a few million years later they became a fish and a few million after that they changed into something else, and they laugh at you. Strange that adults believe it through and through.


Children (barring the rare case) lack the intellectual capacity for understanding evolution. Religion tends to be far easier to teach, as Goatboy mentioned. Adults, however, possess the ability to readily distinguish between fantasy and reality, even if they choose to not exercise it. It seems, by your line of reasoning, that it would be perfectly acceptable for adults to continue believing in fairies and pixie dust simply because many children do. Wait a minute... Irony?

Calian wrote:Your telling me that you honestly without a doubt believe that you evolved? It's strange that over the past what at least 3000 years that nothing is still evolving? A little strange I'd say, don't see no animals evolving either. Now you might bring up adaptation an Darwin yea, but if I was a 100meter sprinter my body would adapt to being better at that, doesn't mean I evolved.


Your understanding of the subject matter is beneath that of my 6-year old nephew, literally. Documented evolution is occurring throughout the animal kingdom. I guess you didn't get the memo about the genetic divergence of Orcas, African butterflies developing new defense mechanisms against predators, lizards in Australia(?) suddenly switching from egg-hatched young to placental birth... Even in humans it is still happening. Especially in third-world countries. More developed nations such as America is undergoing a much different variation: aesthetics. Face it, beautiful people are the first choice in breeding. Ugliness is slowly being bred out.

Calian wrote:An even more strange that before the Precambrian explosion there aint no fossil records, so out of nowhere Organic material turned up, then it began to evolve. I don't believe the crap that you get spoon fed in school these days, people need to go out and look up there own opinions instead of coming to a conclusion based on something they learn when there like 11 years old.


The first multi-celled lifeforms appeared in the Precambrian and you're complaining that we haven't found a single-celled fossil that pre-dates that? :roll:

Calian wrote:Law was well established. Society wasn't. An the Law back in the bible times was rather strict. 600+ Laws, there all in the bible, and they cover pretty much everything. I'd say the law was established. Just because humans come in and mess it up doesn't mean that God is in the wrong.


Society was definitely established. You may have heard of the Roman Empire? Unless you mean some of the early Old Testament years, in which case Egypt was a thriving entity. My history of the Fertile Crescent is a little hazy, but the Middle East was bustling around the same era. In fact, Hammurabi's Code, from Babylon, beats Biblical law by a long shot. I think there may have even been an earlier record found from another pre-monotheistic society. Don't quote me on that, though.

Calian wrote:If I understand this right, people belive religon and other people believe in the theory of evolution, but according to what your saying doesn't religon then become it's self a theory, the theory of god, now to my understanding there is a logic behind every theory. So saying that it's illogical isn't right really. An mis-guided teachings? Again humans mess up the teachings,its not the teachings that are mis-guided, the people are. An not by the teachings either, but by there interpretation of the teachings.


No. On so many levels. Theories are models used to explain physical phenomenon and are backed by mountains of empirical evidence. God is backed by nothing empirical. He/she/it has just as much supporting evidence as Hansel and Gretel. Before anyone goes there though, anecdotes, even a haphazard collection of them, do not qualify as empirical. God, by the very definition that theists place upon he/she/it, lies outside of the boundaries of science and logic; a superfluous entity that cannot be either proven nor dis-proven.

I think you're spot on with the "humans screwing up the teachings" part, though.
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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by sanddbox on Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:19 pm
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Thank you, Vulpine. I simply didn't have the energy to address the mountain of factual mutilation in there.
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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by Calian on Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:33 pm
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@Goatboy, at least where I'm from (UK) religion isn't taught tbh. Teaching the meaning of Christmas to a child, when the teaching itself isn't right, isn't really teaching.

Fair enough I come across a little like an ass an for that I'm sorry. Where you say "you will be rewarded in heaven forever" thats not true from my understanding. Revelation says that not everyone goes to Heaven, and before anyone says anything there is no Hell. It's not in the bible, something else people have gone an messed up.

Religion isn't a must for children. There are plenty of children that haven't got a clue about religion, but they understand science better than most adults, as shown by this site, as there some of you guys that know more than me and I've been with the security scene for 11 Years an I know that some of you are younger than me and I come to you for the answers.

Understanding some of the concepts written in the bible, I can say that in general a child wouldn't understand. Try explain the book of Revelation to a child? Or the Prophecy describing Weeks of Years and the rebuilding of the Temple? Aspects can be taught to both parties on either subject.

Final word there. I used to be a Med student, did A-Level Biology, Chemistry, Physics and Math. Changed to IT. I know enough about Evolution. Don't want to come across like an ass but can't be helped. People defend what they believe in. Or should do, a disscussion for another time.

@sanddbox

Thanks for saying what I'm trying to explain was stupid. I suck at explaining. <3

@Vulpine

Remove spirituality and you are left with an individual who has no compass for navigating life on their own


Can't say thats true, since you can be religious and it not be spiritual. Plenty of people read the bible everyday for a bit of direction without being spiritual. Again there are plenty of people that leave religion, and they seem to be doing just fine. Just a thought.

Just so I understand that from that peice of literature you quoted. That putting something above the yourself means that you have little regard for yourself and life. Whats a self-sacrificing attitude then? So wanting the best for someone else isn't the way to look at it?

Not really understanding what your getting at in mentioning irony tbh. Since yes it is perfectly acceptable for adults to believe what they want to believe even if it's the same as children. It's freewill. Choice to do what they want. An children have the same choice. Everyone can choose what to whatever they want to do. It'll come across as stupid most probably, but at the end of the day it's true, black and white. Either you do believe it or you don't. Your choice.

Now to the documented Evolution, first up the Lizards? You mean about the article where the group believed it was a placental birth? Look up what "Ovoviviparous" means. Thats a good start. Since acording to the article I read saying that a lizard giving birth like a mammal, is a little vague lets be honest. Not much science in that. However saying that it is having a live birth is a little different.

Orca's, you mean the different type of teeth? Went an read the article on that one on the BBC website. Yea when as stated the different types of teeth tied in rather well with the different type of diet causes the Orca to adapt to the different prey makes sense. But isn't adaptation exactly what Darwin mentioned birds do. Too my understanding Adaptation and Evolution are different.

You serious about the aesthetics idea? Like seriously? Not to take the mick, but if that were true, then how does that line of reasoning apply to other species?

About society, thanks for the lesson, always nice to learn something new. In the context of what Tremor wrote, I still think I've a valid point.

Few definition's of a Theory.

A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment.
A speculative or conjectural view or idea.

Hence a belief in god guides actions or assists comprehension or judgment.

Of course from your definition of a theory, what you write in that context is correct.

At the end of the day, I may not be right, you may not be right. Unless there is a completed 100% iron-clad answer people will be believe what they believe. I still think it's strange, that if Evolution was true, then religon is just anotehr part of evolution on some level? It's part of our minds evolving, regardless of it's true or not? Again I may be wrong. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe. Fairs fair.

Again don't mean to come across like a nugget.]

Back to the more technical things for now........oh and sorry for any typos....

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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by tremor77 on Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:31 pm
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How many wars have been fought and lives lost under the banner of religion?

How many wars have been fought and lives lost under the banner of evolution?

Personally I don't favor either, as questions such as how did we get here and what is the meaning of life aren't really purposeful to me. I did enough soul searching and acid while in college to determine that I don't really give a shit either way. We are here, and that's all that matters and to think upon it too much is impractical as I've intellectually and emotionally come to bare that complete, solid proof will almost surely never exist.

Back on topic however.. I guess I dislike the idea of Quran burning solely based on it's potential consequences.. but the potential consequences enrage me. If burning a book as a symbolic or political statement is justification for murderous reprisals... does that mean it's justified that a fired employee can gun down his former co-workers, or a kid who's girlfriend dumped him to shoot up the college campus? The book burning is one thing, but the threats and actual reprisals that Muslims - and even the moderate ones - justify because of it... makes the Islamic faith even that more contemptible to me. Not that other faiths have not been equally contemptible in their actions along these same lines, but I can imagine in my mind.. a Muslim saying to me "I am a Muslim, you must treat me and my faith with respect and tolerance, and since I am a Muslim... I have no obligation to return that favor."

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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by Calian on Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:52 pm
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How many wars have been fought and lives lost under the banner of religion?

How many wars have been fought and lives lost under the banner of evolution?


No denying that there, that religion is a big cause. Strange that the same religions fought eachother in World War 1 + 2. Somethings I don't understand. I agree with what you said about the reprisals. A book is a book. As you may have guessed I believe in god, but at the end of the day my bible is a bible. If my house was fire I'd happily say that it wouldn't be the thing I was trying to save, I can go out and get another one. I think in my opinion, yes whats written in a religous book is important, can't comment on the Quran, but you can always get another one. Another one of those people being misled everyday scenario. This isn't the Book of Eli movie.

Whats inside the book important. The paper it's written on not so important. A little black and white awell.

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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by Defective Flamesuit on Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:20 pm
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While it seems this post has trailed a little off-topic, I'd like to respond to the original question. I am personally in utter opposition to the burning of the Koran as a response to the proposed "Ground Zero Mosque". First of all, the issue of the mosque itself:

America was founded on the idea that people should be free to practice their own religion. Anyone against the construction of the mosque is inherently against some of the core principles of our constitution. Saying that building a mosque near ground zero is offensive comes off as a borderline absurd argument. One who argues this is essentially unifying the entire Muslim faith with terrorism. If a Christian kills a family in Wyoming, is building a church next to the late family's household offensive? Absolutely not, because this individual Christian is not representative of all Christianity, just as a radical terrorist group is not representative of all of Islam. The location for the mosque was actually chosen out of necessity for a building of adequate size anyways, not to spite others (good real estate in manhattan is hard to come by). The new owner of the land looked at at least 7 other sites before finding the space near ground zero that proved to be suitable, according to a Yahoo news article.

Now we can move onto the idea of burning a Koran in response to this proposed construction. This is ridiculous. Not one legitimate thing is gained by burning the holy text of a religion. However, the burning has several downsides: it spites Muslims everywhere and reinforces the stereotype of Americans being insensitive and intolerant of Islam, it angers radicals even further, consequently putting the lives of U.S. soldiers at risk, and it simply causes more conflict.

Does anyone here support the proposed (now canceled) burning? If so, I'd be interested to hear your responses.
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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by tremor77 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:49 am
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If you can't burn a Quran then the terrorists have won. They have instilled terror in us that causes us to alter our actions based on the fear of their reprisals. It's like when the pansy kids on the playground just start giving the bully their lunch money before they even get punched. Not burning the Quran only emboldens the terrorists further.. they will see this as a victory for their method, and will seek to further their agenda even more now that they know we flinch in the fear of their shadow. T'is a sad, sad day... I suppose we will let the Fort Hood Shooter off next for fear of violence and demonstrations. Just how far are YOU willing to let it go?
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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by Defective Flamesuit on Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:02 am
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tremor77 wrote:If you can't burn a Quran then the terrorists have won. They have instilled terror in us that causes us to alter our actions based on the fear of their reprisals. It's like when the pansy kids on the playground just start giving the bully their lunch money before they even get punched. Not burning the Quran only emboldens the terrorists further.. they will see this as a victory for their method, and will seek to further their agenda even more now that they know we flinch in the fear of their shadow. T'is a sad, sad day... I suppose we will let the Fort Hood Shooter off next for fear of violence and demonstrations. Just how far are YOU willing to let it go?


I disagree.

"If you can't burn a Quran then the terrorists have won." What does burning a Koran gain you? The expression "pick your battles" comes to mind here. It is evident that to get along, each side will have to make sacrifices. I will gladly sacrifice the right to instill a greater degree of hate into those that already loathe the U.S. in exchanged for the increased security of our troops in foreign nations and greater domestic safety. In this situation we have to be the metaphorical bigger person. If we couldn't, say, build a new landmark because it is too much of a terrorist risk, then what you are saying comes into play. But the right to burn a religion's holy text? Is that a right that you need? Does it benefit you? I do not think that we should refrain from burning the Koran out of fear for retaliation - it shouldn't be done for the simple reason that it only harms, and does not help. If we stoop to that level, that is when they have won. By causing us to feel the need to burn their texts, this shows that they have won. But refraining from uselessly provoking further a group of people is the right thing to do, simply because it improves everyone's situation.

If you feel that the right to burn a Koran is important to you, that is your opinion. But is it worth the lives of victims of more terrorism that such an action would spawn? No.
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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by IncandescentLight on Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:24 am
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Heck, if this happened in my country the perpetrator would be chucked into the Internal Security Act 'Detention camp' with technically indefinite detention as the judges can just keep renewing the detention period. Won't be a big deal at all, and the media definitely won't be able to blow up the situation.

I think burning the Koran is an ignorant act. The pastor of merely 50 worshipers aimed to target 'extremists' but instead tried to burn a book representing the whole of that religion. Also, the date could not be worse. Hari Raya Aidilfitri is Islam's new year, and I doubt Muslims would like to usher it in with their holy book being burned.

Again, it all comes to America's First Amendment, freedom of speech. Compare the response of an African man who tried to burn Bibles in response to this. He was immediately detained and stopped. This situation is like walking on a razor's edge, or galloping through a mine-field. In my opinion, the situation should have been nipped in the bud.
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Re: what is your opinion in quran burning?

Post by msbachman on Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:21 am
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I don't care in the least that someone chose to burn the Koran. As trash a book as it is, having them pollute the air is a better alternative to having them read by an impressionable youth.
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