Javascript for beginers

[msbachman]

Sorry, I worded that poorly while on my nerd-rage spree.

I'm not sure if cen really was looking to pick a fight with you, but that was a pretty impressive nerd rage imo.

[acantho]

Oooops !

I was only asking an opinion on a book I picked up for free. I had no intentionof starting a flame war.

Anyway back to the book: I've been finding it interesting and helpful in understanding what and how JS works and what it does. I freely admit I don't know shit about programing and I doubt I will ever be good enough to write my own programs, but that's not why I'm here - I just want to learn about security and how it is/how to exploit holes or in some cases how holes where exploited in the past.
I find this site very useful and informative, and as somebody said above you learn from researching how to do the missions. Having walkthroughs/handouts is pretty useless in my opinion - have always thought that and the little bit of teaching I've done at undergraduate level (nothing related to computers) has had me infuriated at having (university policy) to provide not just hand outs but post the lectures I've composed on line for students to down load - they will learn very little just by reading through a PPT file with added notes - where as having some pointers (a lecture with limited handouts - if any) forces them to do their own reading and research on to the subject matter. This is saying nothing about being forced to hand over my intellectual property due to the terms of the teaching contracts I've had.

Now any comments about the book /JS without the flaming are welcome - otherwise I'm calling in the internet version of the UN
P.s. anybody got their email address ?

[tgoe]

Well I'm not even mad at you but you don't know nearly enough about this to make any sort of informed statement on the subject.

Excuse me... but just how the fuck do you think you know that?

1) JavaScript is a case of design by deadline. It has some problems, yes. Semicolon insertion is hilariously terrible for example. Every language has problems though, that's why there is more than one. Is it a good language to use? Guess what? You don't have much of a choice if you're even considering it because any language in the same space is even worse (and of course, js is making inroads to other areas. See my last post). If you actually took the time to learn it you'd realize just how liberating and powerful it can be... "It doesn't even support classes, there's no pointers"... lmao.

2) ECMAScript. BTW, your example is just another reason to learn it and use it. Also, this: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2006-October/000133.html

3) Of course people with zero interest in programming creating programs is a bad thing (particularly from a security standpoint)! But people do it! And JavaScript makes this possible! Last time I checked, this was a hacking/security-focused forum... a legion of noobs creating apps is a hacker/cracker bonanza. Learn JavaScript.

4) The "movement of things into the cloud" is just a legal loophole + marketing-speak-hype for "We found a way around open source licenses to create a new closed source product. Just slap an AJAX layer on top!". Native apps aren't going away, either, ever. In the future though, I believe that many will be created with JavaScript.

Chrome's big bragging right to being the fastest and (under debate) safest browser is being built from the ground up fresh...

Reinventing the wheel is hardly something to brag about... Chrome was created to propagate a monopoly just as IE was.
Also, Opera is fastest and most secure...

Well I guess I need to become the forum asshole, better start hammering report post because your egos are going to bleed.

Welcome to the forums

[sanddbox]

Oooops !

I was only asking an opinion on a book I picked up for free. I had no intentionof starting a flame war.

There's an important (albeit subtle) difference between a debate and a flame war. Flaming involves throwing (usually baseless) insults, while debates are an actual discussion.

[cen]

Well, I've been gone for a few days (went to my brother's wedding) and just got back...

I just read this thread and honestly laughed...

There's an important (albeit subtle) difference between a debate and a flame war. Flaming involves throwing (usually baseless) insults, while debates are an actual discussion.

True, a flame war wouldn't actually begin unless *I* got angry also, since those remarks were directed at me - So NOW THE FLAME WAR BEGINS!!!

Just kidding... haha

Seriously though - 0xBEEF1337 - Take a pill - I doubt anyone reading this would disagree - WALK AWAY FROM THAT SCREEN, you've spent too much time in front of it, I've been there, apparently, (like you) I've spent way too much time in front of a PC, and it makes you an asshole like this from time to time...

I have no intentions of starting a flame war, and will likely never respond to anything else posted in this particular thread due to the fact that you obviously cannot control your rage. However, I do feel the need to respond to your attack...

First off - SORRY about stating that Google Chrome was the same as IE, as I said, I've never used it and while I was working @ Microsoft, I troubleshot a PC once that had a modified IE browser on it (there are many) - I thought this was one of them, OOPS, my bad - Boy am I an idiot!???? Whatever... I'm human, guess what, sometimes we're wrong...

I probably should have researched the browser more, but at the time, I was only concerned with what the shortcut you were discussing was.

Either way - the point was about you using the add-ons instead of programming the solution... Hence - SCRIPT KIDDIE solution. If you already have the skills, as I already mentioned, these tools aren't useless and can be faster... But the point of the missions is to learn what's going on behind the scenes, and programming the solution is generally the only real way to fully understand them in most cases... How good are those add-ons on a PC that doesn't have them installed and with no internet access??? Which is why we learn a more 'generic' way of doing things ourselves without the need for some tool that somebody else designed... It separates script kiddies from real hackers... Most real hackers, generally try not to use these tools anyways - Why? It tends to make us forget how to manually do it if needed... We try to learn to do things on a computer with whatever tools come with the OS if we can, without the need to install or download anything. With all your programming background, I'm sure you MUST understand that concept. We don't all have photographic memories.

Oh boy time to say I don't know javascript because I said there's a way faster and smarter way to do this, then realised that there were JS missions you were talking about, not the basic ones, edited my post to say "delete this" and you go into nerd-rage mode on what a script kiddy I am?

First off - take a look at the time stamps - When I began my post - YOUR ORIGINAL MESSAGE WAS IN THE THREAD - I hadn't noticed any edit that you had made until JUST NOW when I logged in, you obviously modified your message while I opened a window to edit it and saved it again before I responded and clicked on submit - Not surprising considering the ridiculous amount of things I tend to do while multitasking on a computer from time to time, and as many of us do, tend to get side tracked before finishing some things.

Second, at the time of your post, I looked at your profile and all you had were a few basic missions done - I'd be the first one to admit that this doesn't necessarily state that you don't know what you're doing on a PC, but 70-90% of the time, it's a pretty safe bet for many of the people on this site, which is WHY I worded my response the way that I did... When I started on this site, I was already a very capable programmer and as such, obviously even already had some hacking skills, but the truth is that if you don't know how to hack and just start solving some of the basic missions using 3rd party tools, you'll have some problems when you try to do some of the later missions... There are some subtle tricks that even an experienced programmer would need to pick up on in order to move on...

Third, I've noticed you've done PLENTY more missions since, so you either are as good as you say (maybe... the missions you've done are all still quite easy) or you're just talking out your ass and using a shit load of walkthrus, or whatever - No one will ever no, or likely really care. But by your response we ALL know one thing - You are a fucking prick with very little social skills. You jump to conclusions, and personally, I already don't like you. The only one raging here is you. The rest of us simply debate and learn. Stop taking it so personally, the only one I'm seeing with a bloated ego so far is you.

I've been writing software for a long time, so really, don't start down talking down to me and saying I'm clueless about ECMA script because I use chrome instead of installing 50 extensions, especially when I've actually talk with the TC-39 group.

Wow, I'm so impressed... The only people with bloated ego's are those who feel that they have to justify themselves... I doubt anyone cares... Many of us on here have been programming for decades... INCLUDING me - Ooops, now there goes MY BLOATED EGO!!!

BTW, am I the only one who found that this sentence didn't make much sense???

You really want to say I don't know my shit? I've dedicated my life to becoming a greasy nerd, back the fuck off and don't call me a script kiddy because I use a browser you don't like-- because it's just like IE-- Because you've never used it.

Re-read my comment - I never, not even ONCE, specifically stated that you were an idiot or that you didn't actually know anything, nor did I call YOU a script kiddie... Implied maybe, but I certainly didn't personally attack you. I have no way of knowing how much you know and made an educated guess based on the information I saw. I'm also FAR from the first person to respond to this kind of message in this way - Being how 'superior' you are though, I shouldn't need to tell you that... Your response certainly shows a lack of understanding in something... One would almost think that you're trying to compensate for something...???

Anyways, your ignorance and rage is starting to get the better of me, so ciao.

And yes, I'm sure we're ALL impressed by you.... You've certainly made an impression on me... You MAY be smart, but you have MUCH to learn. Social tact being a big one.

[0xBEEF1337]

Delete.

[sanddbox]

For some of the newer members, I'd like you to take notes on what I consider to be some high-quality trolling here.

Notice how excellently 0xBEEF1337 deflects the megapost by cen regarding the semi-flame war in this thread. By simply declaring "tldr", he's done many things:

• Avoided having to respond to cen's post
• Trolled cen by ignoring the post she spent a lot of time on
• Given the impression he does not care what Cen says
• Ignored the fact he himself made a much larger post (even if it was much more informative)

Perhaps the delivery was slightly flawed - it could definitely use a "umad, bro?", but all in all, it was at least a 9 out of 10.

Now, we all know that 0xBEEF1337 read the post, but the gesture still conveys a complete lack of respect for Cen that really adds up to some fine trolling work.

Final rating: 96/100

Would read again.

[cilpolir]

Now, we all know that 0xBEEF1337 read the post, but the gesture still conveys a complete lack of respect for Cen that really adds up to some fine trolling work.

fixed

[msbachman]

This reminds me of this thread, where a wizened sage reaching senility in his later years picks a fight with a forum noob and is soundly trounced (the 'wizened sage' remark is NOT directed at anyone in this conversation, FYI):

http://www.hellboundhackers.org/forum/how_is_data_stored_on_a_hard_drive-5-15683_0.html

[sanddbox]

Now, we all know that 0xBEEF1337 read the post, but the gesture still conveys a complete lack of respect for Cen that really adds up to some fine trolling work.

fixed

Good catch