Not at all. At no point has science demonstrated one iota of evidence for the notion that god created the universe.
Your entire argument presumes that the universe can't be eternal and that it needed to be caused in the first place. Reread what I said on the topic, if the universe needn't have a cause then your entire argument is shot. Even if it did all it proves is an uncaused cause...god's still not in the picture.
Half of the argument is about what attributes something would need to cause the universe. As I've pointed out before, the attributes needed to cause our universe are all attributes of God, meaning God is a possible cause.
Argument from ignorance. We don't know how the universe came to be with the big bang so god must have done it.
Reasonable conclusions drawn from the available evidence. Nowhere do I say, "we don't know, so it must be God." I say, "To do this sort of thing, you would need something very similar to God."
Unrelated note, are you a Juggalo by chance?
Probably not, since I don't know what that is. All Google gives me is stuff about fans of the Insane Clown Posse.
Nope, wrong again. There's no mind behind evolution and it works fine...tromping your theory of an ephemeral mind guiding the process.
I explicitly said evolution is mindless. I mentioned directed evolution as the only way it could be considered a "designer", since design implies intelligence. I didn't mean to imply that believe in directed evolution.
Well creationists claim that god designed humans as well, so it's not an unrelated topic.
Here's your argument in a nutshell:
1) The universe is fine tuned to support life, therefore
2) God must have designed the universe to be this way.
Now here's my question: what have you read, specifically, to support this position?
Actually, no. The fine-tuning was just a passing mention to support one of the attributes I claim can be attributed to the first cause. You've made a big deal out of it. However, that's not really even a good summary of the fine-tuning argument. It would be better summarized like this:
1) The universe is fine tuned to support life
2) This fine-tuning is improbable by random chance
3) Therefore, an intelligent being must have been involved in creating (or at least ordering) the universe.
I've heard famous biologists like Richard Dawkins (and, I think, someone in this thread) agree that life here on Earth could have been seeded or started by intelligent alien beings (Directed Panspermia). But if you try to posit that our universe as a whole could have been started or even organized by an intelligent being, even in a purely deistic sense, these same people will lash out with derision and counter-arguments to make the idea of universal intelligent design look ridiculous. You said earlier that I was arguing from ignorance because we don't know what happened before the Big Bang. But isn't it also arguing from ignorance to declare with absolute certainty that there is no deity because there is no evidence?
My point was that humans could have been designed much better. God apparently can design things but he's sort of thickheaded in the process, and as a result, he created us, with the obvious and easily addressable aforementioned weaknesses.
Yes, I get your point. My point was that God was not trying to make the best possible body for us.
Also, another point. Does your computer have sixteen terabytes of memory? No? Why not? Sixteen terabyte would be an awesome computer! Whoever designed that thing must be thick-headed to put in less!
The point here is that even when things aren't the best that they could be, there might be a good reason for them to be that way. In the case of your computer, it's probably because of cost, and maybe space limitation. Not being a biologist I can't comment in depth on the human body, but I know I've heard this argument put forth before by people who were educated enough to support it.
Good question, so why are there millions of planets to begin with? Why not just six and a sun or something?
Well, as a Christian, I believe that the heavens declare the glory of God.
Hundreds of trillions of stars... pretty freaking glorious! When I was a deist I didn't think about it much, but it made me very sure that aliens lived out there somewhere. Or that the deist god really liked stars.It'd be interesting to see if another life-bearing planet had heard of Jesus. Lol.
Doubtful. At least, He wouldn't be called Jesus, since that was an entirely human name (about as popular then as John is now). The real interesting thing would be alien psychology, since I take "made in the image of God" to be a mental similarity, not a physical one.
Like a said, your god's a shitty designer.
Why's that? Maybe Andromeda will bring us much needed resources right when we've depleted what we've got here in the Milky Way. Maybe by that time our technology will have advanced far enough the the problems associated with galactic collision will be little more than minor annoyances to us. Unless you can see the future and know that this collision turns out totally bad, you don't really have grounds to call it shitty design.
Nope, as I said before, all your argument shows (assuming it's sound even, which I doubt) is that there needs to be an uncaused cause. No god in the equation at all.
An uncaused cause would be a god by any definition we have. Unless you redefine "god" to mean "being who totally did not create the universe". The only real escape from this is a multiverse spawning off countless universes. Since we don't have direct evidence at all, and the indirect evidence seems to point to a deity (in addition to the many other arguments for God's existence), I see no reason good to believe in the multiverse hypothesis.
This'll be my last response to you, I have other things to do and I think there's enough here for people reading this to see what's going on. You'll live for a while, die, and rot in the ground; my only hope is that you didn't waste too much of your one and only life on your knees, worshipping a lie.
I'm sorry to hear you're done with this discussion. I'm just one of those people who really loves a good argument, and you've been one of the more intelligent people I've argued with. I hate to see it end, but I understand that you just don't feel like going over and over these same points, which you've probably heard from others before, yet again.
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It's ok. Hit on the right topic and I'll rant on for pages.
