Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by Dredric1 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:27 pm
([msg=28220]see Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?[/msg])

Lacrimo wrote:1) Nobody has conclusive evidence as to whether there was a beginning at all.

except that matter can be destroyed and if matter was infinite that wouldn't be so

Lacrimo wrote:2) Evolution being proven false would not justify intelligent design per se.

really?
if we did not evolve then we were created
what other option is there?
Lacrimo wrote:3) Quantum Mechanics allows a particle and anti-particle to pop into existence in relatively empty space. Something can be made from nothing, so long as you make some anti-something in equal quantity. This is the driving force behind Hawking Radiation.

in my box analogy there is nothing no anti-particle and no particle
besides how could these particles and anti-particles pop into existance with out anyone or any GOD guiding them

Lacrimo wrote:4) Your box analogy leads to ad infintum reasoning. If you can't make something from nothing, where did this creator come from? You either need to make an infinite number of creators to justify the next one, or you need to say that your creator is eternal. If you say the creator is eternal, Occam's Razor forces you to save a step and say that the Universe is eternal.

my argument is not that the universe was created but the matter in that universe
the universe as in the space of the universe may be eternal
but the matter/light/heat/energy/waves/etc. was created

Lacrimo wrote:5) If intelligent design is true, why do humans have tailbones? There are many examples of body parts not at all needed in creatures. This is explained in evolution, not at all in ID.


it is the end of the spine whether or not it is called a tailbone
animals with tails just have extended spines that are called tail

Lacrimo wrote:6) Evolution has been observed in certain fly species that make a new generation every 24hrs or so. They have seen the change in DNA that came about through evolutionary processes.


DNA is like a smart program or slice of code that adapts.

think about it this way if you were God would you create a fly that could adapt to the environment or
not be able adapt and then die off


Lacrimo wrote:7) Do you think your simplistic logic hadn't occurred to all the Ph.d physicists out there? You think others haven't asked those questions of them? You either believe that you know more than the collective knowledge of every physicist out there, or that there is a conspiracy to hide ID for some reason.


well if you were average and sinned all the time would you allow
a little logic to make you feel guilty?
the code for the void exception between the ear brackets
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ok my brackets dont realy look like ears.
if you didnt get that it means there is nothing(no brains) between your ears.
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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by r-ID on Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:51 am
([msg=28244]see Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?[/msg])

think about it this way if you were God would you create a fly that could adapt to the environment or
not be able adapt and then die off

yes
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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by Possumdude0 on Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:23 pm
([msg=28771]see Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?[/msg])

I haven't had internet for a while, but I'm back (ish) now.

except that matter can be destroyed and if matter was infinite that wouldn't be so


I'm not following you here, could you re-state this more clearly?

really?
if we did not evolve then we were created
what other option is there?


Disproving one theory does not prove its rival theory. You need positive evidence for your theory, not negative evidence for other theories.

Also, your logic does not disprove evolution at all. Even if the matter and energy in our universe was created by an intelligent designer, that does not mean that the designer didn't design evolution, or that the designer loves and cares about us as Christianity teaches. This is why I was a deist for ten years.

in my box analogy there is nothing no anti-particle and no particle
besides how could these particles and anti-particles pop into existance with out anyone or any GOD guiding them


There is evidence for particles and anti-particles popping into existence, but you have not supported your argument that this requires God's intervention with evidence.

it is the end of the spine whether or not it is called a tailbone
animals with tails just have extended spines that are called tail


This sort of dismissal of arguments is indefensible. You can't just explain things away like this. If you do have good reason to think that your statement is true, then please share those reasons with us. If you do not have good reason, then the view should not be expressed in a scientific context.

Code: Select all
DNA is like a smart program or slice of code that adapts.

think about it this way if you were God would you create a fly that could adapt to the environment or
not be able adapt and then die off


A decent argument, but it could use expansion.


While I agree with Dredric1's overall point, I think his specific logic and arguments are lacking.
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Please phrase your responses accordingly
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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by Dredric1 on Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:36 pm
([msg=32224]see Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?[/msg])

in reply to possumdude0

sorry i didn't see this sooner but i haven't looked at the religion form for a while

except that matter can be destroyed and if matter was infinite that wouldn't be so


if you can destroy matter than you can create matter
if you can create matter than matter is not infinite

really?
if we did not evolve then we were created
what other option is there?


well what other option is there
there isn't
if we were created then we did not get here on our own
and if we weren't created then we would have had to get there on our own
if a intelligent designer created evolution then he indirectly created us
There is no way to prove GOD's love it only comes through experience




in my box analogy there is nothing no anti-particle and no particle
besides how could these particles and anti-particles pop into existence with out anyone or any GOD guiding them


I'm using logic here not evidence true logic uses almost no evidence

it is the end of the spine whether or not it is called a tailbone
animals with tails just have extended spines that are called tail


what I'm saying here is that animals with spines don't always have a tail so just because people have spines doesn't prove that they once were animals who evolved

Code: Select all
DNA is like a smart program or slice of code that adapts.

think about it this way if you were God would you create a fly that could adapt to the environment or
not be able adapt and then die off


possumdude0 wrote:A decent argument, but it could use expansion.


While I agree with Dredric1's overall point, I think his specific logic and arguments are lacking.


logical arguments are lacking?
logic doesn't use evidence just common sense
a lot you have been asking for is evidence
the code for the void exception between the ear brackets
Code: Select all
public static }void(exception x = new exception(null)){

ok my brackets dont realy look like ears.
if you didnt get that it means there is nothing(no brains) between your ears.
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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by sanddbox on Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:08 pm
([msg=32228]see Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?[/msg])

Dredric1 wrote:except that matter can be destroyed and if matter was infinite that wouldn't be so


Matter cannot be destroyed. Retake 6th grade science.

Dredric1 wrote:if we did not evolve then we were created


We did evolve.

Dredric1 wrote:in my box analogy there is nothing no anti-particle and no particle
besides how could these particles and anti-particles pop into existence with out anyone or any GOD guiding them


The same way we did.

Dredric1 wrote:it is the end of the spine whether or not it is called a tailbone
animals with tails just have extended spines that are called tail

Yes. Because they evolved.
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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by faazshift on Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:41 pm
([msg=32231]see Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?[/msg])

sanddbox wrote:We did evolve.

Proof? I certainly believe humans are highly adaptive, but I simply cannot believe that non-living matter suddenly decided to somehow form some functional cells that worked exactly the same and somehow made some little being that eventually mutated into some land creature (which didn't end up dying) and somehow eventually became a human and formed both genders so that we could reproduce and continue our species. Besides, why isn't there still widespread mutation happening all around us? Evolution just doesn't make sense to me. A higher intelligence, being able to control matter, creating us makes far more sense to me.

The sheer complexity and masterful design of the human body, to me, seems strong evidence in favor of intelligent design.
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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by sanddbox on Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:20 am
([msg=32235]see Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?[/msg])

faazshift wrote:
sanddbox wrote:We did evolve.

Proof? I certainly believe humans are highly adaptive, but I simply cannot believe that non-living matter suddenly decided to somehow form some functional cells that worked exactly the same and somehow made some little being that eventually mutated into some land creature (which didn't end up dying) and somehow eventually became a human and formed both genders so that we could reproduce and continue our species. Besides, why isn't there still widespread mutation happening all around us? Evolution just doesn't make sense to me. A higher intelligence, being able to control matter, creating us makes far more sense to me.

The sheer complexity and masterful design of the human body, to me, seems strong evidence in favor of intelligent design.


Obviously the problem is that you don't have a grasp on how the process works. Earth is billions of years old. Billions. We humans have been alive for thousands; mere fractions of that.

Evolution takes place when something goes wrong in DNA. Something is screwed up, and the result is something new. Most of the time, that new result is completely detrimental and the new species dies off. But sometimes a good change occurs, or at least a change that isn't bad enough to warrant dying out, and thus the species has evolved.

The reason amphibious creatures evolved into land creatures is because they became better. The bad mutations DID die. Widespread mutation doesn't happen because evolution takes millions of years.
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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by faazshift on Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:31 am
([msg=32238]see Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?[/msg])

One problem, where did the DNA/cells/living-matter start. It obviously didn't just create itself. Where did it come from? Did rocks hit together in just the right way? Did water splash on sand just perfectly? I don't see how living tissue is just made from mere molecules without some sort of divine intervention.
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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by sanddbox on Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:08 am
([msg=32242]see Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?[/msg])

faazshift wrote:One problem, where did the DNA/cells/living-matter start. It obviously didn't just create itself. Where did it come from? Did rocks hit together in just the right way? Did water splash on sand just perfectly? I don't see how living tissue is just made from mere molecules without some sort of divine intervention.


We don't know how it started. That's the point.

We tell the truth: We don't know. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than god does.
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Re: Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

Post by faazshift on Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:38 pm
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sanddbox wrote:We don't know how it started. That's the point.

We tell the truth: We don't know. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than god does.

Really? You try taking some rocks and making a living being out of them. I find it much easier to believe that a more knowledgeable being than ourselves created us than that some magical stuff happened and suddenly life.
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