Big Bang or Intelligent Design?

[Dredric1]

who also wants you to do some ridiculous things or he's going to send you to a place after you're dead where you will have to endure unspeakable pain and torment...

in the bible it never says that people will be in torment forever after they are dead.
nor does it say that they will be in pain.

here is what it says
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them...
fire devoured the evil people....
satan , the beast, and the false prophet are the only ones to be tormented forever

even though he already knows you are and made you say sorry himself....

you are describing pre-destination which is a completely false beleif
if you were to read the bible you would know that christians believe in freedom of choice

[The7thGuest]

However, this doesn't preclude the existence of God. To say that there cannot possibly be a God is a wrong idea.

True. Of course there could be an impossible magic man sitting in the sky, because nothing you say could actually disprove something which is undetectable if it exists. So likewise, I'm going to act offended and scornful when you "insult" me by saying you don't believe my delusion: He's an invisible flying spaghetti monster, and his name is Patrick. You can't actually see him, he doesn't communicate or act in any obvious way, but you know how even men have nipples? That was Him. He did that, and if science disproves that completely, then it was never meant to be taken literally anyway. ALL HAIL THE SPAGHETTI MONSTER!

Nothing should be considered impossible. That is why I can't understand atheism. Agnosticism makes fine sense, because that's saying, "I doubt it, but who knows?" whereas atheism simply says, "No." That seems very reactionary, like there is a reason beyond rational deduction for the belief.

To be an atheist you don't have to reject out of hand any ideas of a power, force or being beyond our perception. You reject all religious deities.

You also probably find the idea of a god that is incredibly human-like, whilst also omnipotent, who knows everyone personally and is everywhere but still one being and loves everyone (because apparently this all-powerful force feels very human-like emotions), who also wants you to do some ridiculous things or he's going to send you to a place after you're dead where you will have to endure unspeakable pain and torment although he loves you and wants to forgive you as long as you say sorry even though he already knows you are and made you say sorry himself, who has (supposedly) directly communicated to people and told them to kill other people for some unmentioned reason, but also said through his son, who is also him, who's also a ghost, which is also him, that killing is wrong and he will PUNISH you for doing it.

Phew. Now flame away if you insist, believers.

P.S. ALL HAIL PATRICK, THE INVISIBLE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!

-- Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:19 am --

Another thing, a bit more on-topic...

Since our laws of physics dictate that matter and energy can only change forms, never be created or destroyed, it's impossible for the big bang to have come from nothing, right? But before the big bang, we didn't have any laws of physics, let alone a we to have them. Does this not also apply to any laws concerning the conservation of energy/matter?

Haha, luckily I wasn't born without a sense of humour or a decent enough logic to be able to tell you that although I feel that was reductio ad absurdum, there is quite a bit of sound logic to your post.

(And just so we're all on the same page by that I mean "Oversimplifying an argument to the most absurd, yet seemingly "logical" position")

Although in some sense I have to agree, but what you have forgotten is that there are tons of relevant references, Christ was in fact on earth and he did in fact die on the cross, to take the obvious and highlight it I should say the Church condemned Christ to die on the cross. These are all facts, the only debateable point as you've so clearly pointed out, is the "ghost" and "who is also him" parts.

The main problem in my honest opinion is the amount of christians who blindly follow their faith and who've never actually thought about their religion and yet these are the same people who wake me up on a sunday and try tell sell a religion they know nothing about, the next time someone knocks on your door and tries to sell you religion ask them how old jesus was when he died? Or how did the disciples die? I mean seriously wake up people! Get out of your shells, there is thousands of years of history in this, when Martin Luther translated the bible he accused the church of misusing and abusing the gospel, do you honestly believe all of that has been filtered out of the church?

I mean take a look at http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/ and tell me that all of those little pages were faked 600+ years ago and just has everyone who's expertise lies there fooled and those who aren't fooled by this fraud is just waiting for the right moment to speak up about it?

Honestly, the best way to make money in this world right now is start an atheist church, people will buy that like hotcakes. It would be a sad point in history to see atheism becoming a religion, but I am pretty sure we'll see that soon enough and hopefully you will then understand my little rant about the church, I put it delicately a lot of them has missed the point.

[Spectre557]

who also wants you to do some ridiculous things or he's going to send you to a place after you're dead where you will have to endure unspeakable pain and torment...

in the bible it never says that people will be in torment forever after they are dead.
nor does it say that they will be in pain.

So when Christians tell you or their children "You're going to Hell if you don't do what the Bible tells you", they are in fact lying? That sounds an awful lot like blackmail to me, hardly a "Christian attitude".

even though he already knows you are and made you say sorry himself....

you are describing pre-destination which is a completely false beleif
if you were to read the bible you would know that christians believe in freedom of choice

You don't have to read the Bible to know that some fundamental Christian concepts are in direct conflict with each other.

I stands to reason that if God is all-powerful he must control everything. Therefore, there can be no free will as long as God exists, unless he chooses to exercise his power not to act. Fair enough, maybe every time some terrible happens, God just chose not to act for reasons that we "can't understand"... how convenient.

However, even if this is true, then my point still remains valid: There is no reason to pray because God already knows exactly what you're thinking, doing, and saying, without the need for it. In fact, the only reason I can see for God wanting you to pray is in the actual act of grovelling and humiliating yourself.

Do you not have anything to say about any of my other points, or will you do what 90% of believers do and ignore anything that conflicts with your world view?

Although in some sense I have to agree, but what you have forgotten is that there are tons of relevant references, Christ was in fact on earth and he did in fact die on the cross, to take the obvious and highlight it I should say the Church condemned Christ to die on the cross. These are all facts

Fair enough. That doesn't make him God, as well as the son of God, as well as a ghost, who is also God, all-powerful, but still able to die, but not in a metaphysical sense, etc, etc.

the only debateable point as you've so clearly pointed out, is the "ghost" and "who is also him" parts

Well I'm glad you think that's worthy of argument, but not any other parts? Not the apparent impossibility of an omnipotent and omniscient God that allows evil? Not a God who is "beyond our comprehension", yet still has very specific opinions about the tiniest, most insignificant things of day-to-day life? Who experiences strikingly human emotions? Who loves everyone, but punishes them? Who kills people, but then says killing is wrong? It's a shame you don't think any of those points are debatable.

Honestly, the best way to make money in this world right now is start an atheist church, people will buy that like hotcakes.

"Athiest church" is an oxymoron. Athsiem consists of an express lack of belief in the existence of a religious deity. A church or religious body (correct me if I'm wrong) is specifically designed to facilitate the worship of and obedience to a deity.

If you mean a formal organisation of atheists to promote their cause and acheive a common goal, then that's something completely different. But if they use similar methods to the Christian church (basically mind control) then they are no better than the religion they oppose.

[The7thGuest]

Well I'm glad you think that's worthy of argument, but not any other parts? Not the apparent impossibility of an omnipotent and omniscient God that allows evil? Not a God who is "beyond our comprehension", yet still has very specific opinions about the tiniest, most insignificant things of day-to-day life? Who experiences strikingly human emotions? Who loves everyone, but punishes them? Who kills people, but then says killing is wrong? It's a shame you don't think any of those points are debatable.

I think a lot of these points (almost all of them) is simply due to people in power twisting and turning the gospel to fit their needs, make no mistake, I think the bible and the christian religion with it, has been severely desecrated by those in power, mostly in pursuit of more power.

[Dredric1]

So when Christians tell you or their children "You're going to Hell if you don't do what the Bible tells you", they are in fact lying? That sounds an awful lot like blackmail to me, hardly a "Christian attitude"....

You don't have to read the Bible to know that some fundamental Christian concepts are in direct conflict with each other....

I stands to reason that if God is all-powerful he must control everything. Therefore, there can be no free will as long as God exists, unless he chooses to exercise his power not to act. Fair enough, maybe every time some terrible happens, God just chose not to act for reasons that we "can't understand"... how convenient....

yes sadly many christains blackmail their kids
"fundamental Christain" concepts not bible concepts necessarily

God is all Powerfull but He Chooses to not control everything

Do you not have anything to say about any of my other points, or will you do what 90% of believers do and ignore anything that conflicts with your world view?

in a logical sense GOD is very unlikely
you see I choose to believe in the unexplainable instead of
believeing in the impossible

Who kills people, but then says killing is wrong? It's a shame you don't think any of those points are debatable.

if someone chooses satan he chooses death

if someone is a christian and dies
God may have permitted them to die to protect them from some thing later in life

[Possumdude0]

Spectre557, I've noticed a few of your arguments that I feel I can try to answer. Bear in mind through this that I've only been a Christian for about a year, so I would not be surprised to find myself being wrong on the finer points of theology. I would also like to say right at the start that I think both belief and non-belief in Christianity are intellectually defensible positions. I am not trying to convert you to Christianity (although I would of course be overjoyed if you did convert), I am simply trying to clear up a few things that I find illogical or factually wrong in the specific arguments you have presented here.

First, your questions about God.

Who experiences strikingly human emotions?

It would stand to reason, if God created us, and if He gave us emotions, that those emotions would be similar in form to His own emotions. It isn't that God experiences strikingly human emotions, it is instead that we experience strikingly God-like emotions.

Not the apparent impossibility of an omnipotent and omniscient God that allows evil?

Allowing evil is a part of allowing free will. God did not want us to be mindless robots doing his every bidding, and so He gave us free will. A natural outcome of our ability to do what we want is our ability to do things that aren't good.

Who kills people, but then says killing is wrong?

"Thou shalt not kill", one of the ten commandments. I'm not sure why it is phrased like that in English, because it would be more proper to phrase it as "Thou shalt not murder". There is a difference between killing and murder. Murder is always killing, but killing is not always murder. A soldier killing another soldier in battle is not commiting murder. A man defending himself from someone who intends murder is not himself commiting murder. In my personal opinion all killing is regrettable, but it is most certainly not murder.

Who loves everyone, but punishes them?

I assume you're meaning Hell when you speak of punishment. It is true, Hell is a horrible punishment, a place of great pain and terrible sorrow. It is also true (despite the views of some in this thread), that Hell is eternal for everyone who goes there. But it is not true that God sends you there. You send you there, with your free will. This is a subject I've given some thought to, as I've had friends bring this up before.

Imagine yourself on a ship, in stormy seas. God is the captain of this ship (assume He exists for the sake of this argument). You are thrown overboard, and are now being tossed in the wind and the waves. God sees what has happened, and he immediately throws you a floatation device so you can keep your head above water. You ignore this flotation device and yell at God that He is cruel for drowning you.

He sees that you have ignored the flotation device, and so He throws you a rope so that He can pull you back on board. Like the flotation device, you ignore the rope, and again you yell at Him that He is cruel for drowning you.

Seeing this, He jumps onto a small boat and rows His way out to you and offers you His hand, to pull you out of the raging waters. You push away his hand and yet again you yell at Him that He is Cruel for drowning you.

We are, all of us, on the path to Hell. God is offering us His help to get off of that path at every opportunity, but it is up to us to accept His help. I find it as indefensible to blame Him if you choose not to accept His help as it is indefensible to blame a firefighter if you die in a fire because you wouldn't let him take you outside.

I stands to reason that if God is all-powerful he must control everything. Therefore, there can be no free will as long as God exists, unless he chooses to exercise his power not to act.

This is where my knowledge is hazy. I'm given to understand, from what I've read on the subject, that where the Bible says "almighty" and such, it does not mean literally "all powerful, capable of doing literally anything". I will say this: God cannot sin, and God cannot cease to be God. Since He cannot do these things, he cannot do "literally anything". From what I understand, God can do whatever He needs to do in order to fulfill His purposes. Since a part of His purposes is to create beings with free will (us), then it seems reasonable to suppose that He can create creatures which He does not directly control, but which instead must obey Him of their own free will.

There is no reason to pray because God already knows exactly what you're thinking, doing, and saying, without the need for it.

The IRS knows I need a tax-form to file my taxes, but they don't give me one unless I come over to their office and ask for one. In the same way, God knows whatever it is you're asking of Him before you ask it, but it is the act of asking that is important. This is somewhat related to our free will. Prayer is a way of showing that we have chosen to follow Him (although that is not all of what prayer is, just like going and asking for a tax form isn't just showing that you acknowledge that you have to pay taxes).

"Athiest church" is an oxymoron.

Yes, it is. But you'd be surprised at the number of atheists (and agnostics) that I've met who hold to their world view with the kind of zeal that they constantly accuse Christians of holding to Christianity with.

One of my best friends is agnostic, and he refuses to give thought to any evidence against the standard model of evolution (and this includes evidence that requires only revising the theory, not throwing it out) because he can't think of any alternative to evolution other than belief in God. I've discussed evolution with him, and the entire extent of his knowledge comes from a single powerpoint presentation from an introductory biology class, and upon discussing it with him I found that he doesn't even understand all of that powerpoint presentation.

This is the sort of thing that I find intellectually indefensible. People who hold to a view without even understanding that view. Atheism and agnosticism and religion can all be defended intellectually without being self-contradictory, but in each group you find people like my friend who don't understand some of the concepts that they view as the most important to their world view.

I'd just like to end this post by saying, once again, that I don't expect you to suddenly see the light after reading what I've written. Actually, I rather expect you to argue against most of my points, and I expect you may even show me I'm wrong on a couple of them, because I touched on areas that I don't actually have much knowledge of, yet. My goal with this post was to try to clear up some things I saw in your post that seemed to be illogical or factually wrong to me.

[Dredric1]

A soldier killing another soldier in battle is not commiting murder.

my view on war:
if you volunteer for service you are volunteering to kill
if you are drafted the government has now forced you to kill meaning the government has then taken your responsibility for your sin.

the only war i would feel justified to volunteer for is if it is a war of defense as in
you are not conquering land but defending your own

I assume you're meaning Hell when you speak of punishment. It is true, Hell is a horrible punishment, a place of great pain and terrible sorrow. It is also true (despite the views of some in this thread), that Hell is eternal for everyone who goes there. But it is not true that God sends you there. You send you there, with your free will. This is a subject I've given some thought to, as I've had friends bring this up before.

in the bible it never says that people will be in torment forever after they are dead.
nor does it say that they will be in pain.

here is what it says

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them...
fire devoured the evil people....
satan , the beast, and the false prophet are the only ones to be tormented forever

[Possumdude0]

in the bible it never says that people will be in torment forever after they are dead.
nor does it say that they will be in pain.

The problem is that the passage you keep quoting doesn't say that humans won't suffer forever, it only says that Satan will. There are dozens of passages that support an eternal Hell. I'll try to look some up before tomorrow, I would right now but I don't have much time online.

[Spectre557]

Sorry I haven't replied for so long, I haven't had access to the internet for a week.

Instead of debating specific points - which, while interesting, is time-consuming and essentially goes nowhere - I intend to discuss something more important.

But not right now, I'm afraid, I'm very busy.

[Lacrimo]

let us look at this Debate logicaly

first: the things we need to understand
1. Intelligent Design and Evolution are direct opposites so if Intell. Des. is correct than evolution is false and if evolution is correct than intelligent des. is false. one of them has to be true because if the universe was not intelligently designed than it came into existance all by its self. and the argument can be taken the other way too.

2.the universe has to have an origin. where did the first atom come from? the first photon of light? the first pull of gravity?
the first electric charge?

lets take these to facts to the next level

if you take a box that is sealed and has nothing inside how are you to cause the box to become full if there is no inlet or outlet?
you cant
because you cant make something of nothing.
nor can you make nothing of something

so the universe being at one time empty could not of itsself become full

therefore the theory of Evolution is false

Fallacious reasoning at its best.

1) Nobody has conclusive evidence as to whether there was a beginning at all.
2) Evolution being proven false would not justify intelligent design per se.
3) Quantum Mechanics allows a particle and anti-particle to pop into existence in relatively empty space. Something can be made from nothing, so long as you make some anti-something in equal quantity. This is the driving force behind Hawking Radiation.
4) Your box analogy leads to ad infintum reasoning. If you can't make something from nothing, where did this creator come from? You either need to make an infinite number of creators to justify the next one, or you need to say that your creator is eternal. If you say the creator is eternal, Occam's Razor forces you to save a step and say that the Universe is eternal.
5) If intelligent design is true, why do humans have tailbones? There are many examples of body parts not at all needed in creatures. This is explained in evolution, not at all in ID.
6) Evolution has been observed in certain fly species that make a new generation every 24hrs or so. They have seen the change in DNA that came about through evolutionary processes.
7) Do you think your simplistic logic hadn't occurred to all the Ph.d physicists out there? You think others haven't asked those questions of them? You either believe that you know more than the collective knowledge of every physicist out there, or that there is a conspiracy to hide ID for some reason.