Is there such a thing as truth

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Post by DaedalusInfinity on Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:20 pm
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*sigh*

For a philosophy forum, this topic is depressingly lacking in people actually well-read in philosophy.
First of all, part of the problem lies in what you (the person who posted the original message, whose name I have since forgotten) actually mean by your question.

But if I'm interpreting your question correctly, then you are asking about the existence of some sort of objective reality that exists and possesses some intrinsic truth value outside of subjective observation. In this case, all of the eminent philosophers since Descartes have pretty much agreed that it does not exist, or is not accessible. Also, you should read up on Kant, and Nietzsche's proclamation that god is dead.

As for the person who said math is true, there are several flaws in your argument. First of all, you're assuming that your own logical intuition is not wrong, which would be impossible to prove for you anyways. (Hence again, inaccessibility of verification, except through a very naive and flawed application of Occam's Razor.) Secondly, modern mathematics relies on ZFC, which Godel showed was impossible to prove consistent within itself. The standard axioms of historically 'orthodox' schools of mathematics have been bent or broken many times throughout history. Just look at non-Euclidean geometry or Russell's paradox.
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Re: Is there such a thing as truth

Post by fedbia on Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:39 pm
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DaedalusInfinity wrote:*sigh*<br><br>For a philosophy forum, this topic is depressingly lacking in people actually well-read in philosophy.<br>First of all, part of the problem lies in what you (the person who posted the original message, whose name I have since forgotten) actually mean by your question.<br><br>But if I'm interpreting your question correctly, then you are asking about the existence of some sort of objective reality that exists and possesses some intrinsic truth value outside of subjective observation. In this case, all of the eminent philosophers since Descartes have pretty much agreed that it does not exist, or is not accessible. Also, you should read up on Kant, and Nietzsche's proclamation that god is dead.<br><br>As for the person who said math is true, there are several flaws in your argument. First of all, you're assuming that your own logical intuition is not wrong, which would be impossible to prove for you anyways. (Hence again, inaccessibility of verification, except through a very naive and flawed application of Occam's Razor.) Secondly, modern mathematics relies on ZFC, which Godel showed was impossible to prove consistent within itself. The standard axioms of historically 'orthodox' schools of mathematics have been bent or broken many times throughout history. Just look at non-Euclidean geometry or Russell's paradox.


OR an even MORE POPULAR SITUATION!! Galileo and him saying the Earth was round! They imprisoned him and denounced his work and left him in rusty chains giving him tetanus, thus ending his life :(.

And Infinity, did you take a philosophy class in college or something? That response isn't something I would normally see from average people..
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Re: Is there such a thing as truth

Post by passwrdyserv on Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:38 am
([msg=31224]see Re: Is there such a thing as truth[/msg])

TheMindRapist wrote:Who thinks there is such a thing as truth?

Truth is a concept. Concepts were invented by the humankind,therefore the truth itself was invented by the humankind.
What the truth may represent to me,for you might be a lie.

You cannot demonstrate the existence of concepts(altho they are there),but you can prove that those concepts cannot exist without humankind.

Jesus_of_Suburbia wrote:0<1
100>34
92=92

0<1 is a concept too. Math as a science started as a concept. Altho it makes sense for us that 0<1 what if you tell your kid that its the other way around.
Actually big bang theory showed in a way or another that 0= infinite. (the universe-infinite for us-was made out of nothing-thats the 0.)

This is the way i see it.

But truth exists because the society in which we are living,accept this concept and its description.
We couldve given another name to this concept too: we couldve said that it is called blahblahblha.
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Re: Is there such a thing as truth

Post by Philosophae on Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:38 am
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truth (trth)
n. pl. truths (trz, trths)
1. Conformity to fact or actuality.
2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
3. Sincerity; integrity.
4. Fidelity to an original or standard.
5.
a. Reality; actuality.
b. often Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.

Even the official definition ambiguous, but the important point here:fact and reality. Does anything exist? that is the question, because if there is a reality then there are truths. Thus how can we prove reality? I personally like Nietzsche's reductio ad absurdum: If the world we live in is only an illusion of our organs, then our organs are also, an illusion of our organs! Witch is true, how could we imagine what to imagine? and with what to imagine it? thus we exist. Thus there are facts.

-- Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:59 am --

drgn_nut wrote:one important thing that i am surprised no one has brought up so far is the only true statement able to be made by any person: I exist! anything else ever said, done, demonstrated, etc. could actually be false due to some sort of a distortion in your brain that would cause you to see false as true and/or true as false. therefore, I exist is the only true statement anyone can ever make because no matter what manifestation you really are, whether that is human, squirrel, amoeba, or some other type of life unknown to man's limited knowledge, you were still able to conjure up that thought yourself, proving your existence. no one can prove that they exist to anyone else, but the statement is still true within your own mind. everything else could possibly be true, or it could possibly not.


But do we now? what if i say: i am real, but i do not exist? If a being cannot think then he does not exist? absurd. Thinking does not imply anything more then an internal root to the organs, the brain, thus we can "ear" in our head using the same part of the brain that interpret vibration(well technically the influx) anyway so a tough is simply an internal information, but! still requires an external basis. to think about a word or an thing you need a have seen or heard it, and even if you invent a word you still need sound as a basis. Thus every tough is base on external information, so the world is real and so are we, but do "we" as beings "exist"?

-- Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:15 am --

passwrdyserv wrote:
TheMindRapist wrote:Who thinks there is such a thing as truth?

Truth is a concept. Concepts were invented by the humankind,therefore the truth itself was invented by the humankind.
What the truth may represent to me,for you might be a lie.

You cannot demonstrate the existence of concepts(altho they are there),but you can prove that those concepts cannot exist without humankind.

Jesus_of_Suburbia wrote:0<1
100>34
92=92

0<1 is a concept too. Math as a science started as a concept. Altho it makes sense for us that 0<1 what if you tell your kid that its the other way around.
Actually big bang theory showed in a way or another that 0= infinite. (the universe-infinite for us-was made out of nothing-thats the 0.)

This is the way i see it.

But truth exists because the society in which we are living,accept this concept and its description.
We couldve given another name to this concept too: we couldve said that it is called blahblahblha.


NO we invented the word concept. Concept is a title of sort, like a sentence is a concept, a word is, a sound, a truth a lie...
It is actually what the word point to, the word lie point to the concept of lying.
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Re: Is there such a thing as truth

Post by HashHacker on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:26 am
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I would recommend the book "The nightmare academy" Its basically about this group of people trying to figure out what would happen if there was no truth, no right or wrong. They test this by Putting a person into a chamber with a (physically impossible but still cool) projectors so that somehow the whole place looks like its outside, or on the moon, or anywhere. Then they take away the truth from the projectors, for instance, something that is true is you cannot teleport across a room, so they make him teleport all over the world, make him think the worlds upside down, make him think hes dead, and basically makes him do stuff that has no truth, if you get my meaning. Probably not, although I shouldnt stereotype the whole forum with my classmates.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
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Re: Is there such a thing as truth

Post by ToMegaTherion on Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:34 am
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Truth???
It depends, truth is a general consensus on a situation is true only because it perceived to be true. Truth is relative and there for the more time a truth is seen and understood the more certain the truth. But not always, as Leibnitz puts it "10000 Frenchmen can be wrong!" in reference to the French revolution. Epistomology as a social science has attempted to answer this question, and is understood as Primary Knowledge according to Jon Loche.

Now to respond to the reply on mathematical certainty... Maths is only certain if one knows it to be true
You say 100>35... Mathematically the truth in and of itself, correct?
Maybe... maybe not
Maths does not exist in merely abstract circumstances as numbers on a page...
for example 100 grams> 35 kilograms... mathematics can deceive the observer, and may assist one in concluding that a statement is true but not necessarily, as human perception is fallible. We gather knowledge through sense-data, but that data can be tricked.

On the universe... there are of course universal truths sure.
On people/humans... truth is debatable at the best of times as we are driven by motives, interpretation, and experience that can lead two people to arrive to two different "truths" on the same thing.
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