The question is, are you religous?

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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by Spectre557 on Fri May 15, 2009 10:55 am
([msg=23764]see Re: The question is, are you religous?[/msg])

Heath Winchester wrote:I am in the midst of searching! I have no conclusive evidence for anything whatsoever. I have an argument in my head between the logical voice and the creative voice telling me to do different things. One side says "Study, research, discuss and you will find the truth" and the other says "Go be a hippie and it will all come to you naturally and through self enlightenment." It's annoying. I like to believe in something that's out there besides just us. But I also can't stomach that any Religion is the one true way.

You don't have to accept a particular existing religion to be "spiritual"... All a religion does is take spirituality and rape it, basically, by forcing rules and pointless ceremony on it.

Simply accepting that you are the only person in control of your life can be liberating in itself. Much more than a religion.
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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by fiftysixer on Fri May 15, 2009 2:54 pm
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I'm a religious Jew, one of the very few hanging around HTS, and the only one who seems to have 'come out of the closet' about it. :p

Spectre557 wrote:The fact that religion is still around despite becoming obsolete, and an insult to human intelligence, is only proof that people really do need something to give meaning to their life, and to rationalise things they don't understand.

Can you elaborate on that? How is religion 'obsolete'? And what makes it an insult to human intelligence?

Spectre557 wrote:Religion often has almost nothing to do with any actual spirituality; It does at its core, but around that is a senseless, controlling mass of scripture, laws and rituals, that only turn someone who wants to believe in "something" into a mindless sheep.

Not meaning to start a flamefight here, but you obviously know very very little about religion.
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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by Heath Winchester on Fri May 15, 2009 3:41 pm
([msg=23781]see Re: The question is, are you religous?[/msg])

I'm afraid that I have to agree with Spectre. How has Religion not done exactly what he described? I grew up in a Christian home, with my entire family being Christians, all our friends being Christians and we went to Church about 3 times a week. I've been too about 20 different Churches throughout my life including Synagogues because my father went through a Jewish phase. ;) I've been too Methodist, Catholic, Baptist, 4 Square Gospel, Lutheran, Non-Denominational, Semi Non- Denominational, etc...I know a thing or too about it and from all my experience I have surmised this: Religion has nothing to do with Spirituality most of the time. Like Spectre said, at it's core it does but it's ruined by human beings with agendas.
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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by zenithSmil3 on Sat May 16, 2009 4:20 am
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mischief wrote:i believe in the invisible pink unicorn.

and the flying spaghetti monster, and his noodly appendage.

wait, does that make me polytheistic? or a non-theist? :o



Pastafarianism XD

It depends, does religion mean you must have faith? Because for a time I believed just because you believe in something, does not mean you have to worship said thing. So, I spent a great deal of time believing in tables...
Meh.
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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by Spectre557 on Mon May 18, 2009 3:20 pm
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fiftysixer wrote:I'm a religious Jew, one of the very few hanging around HTS, and the only one who seems to have 'come out of the closet' about it. :p

Spectre557 wrote:The fact that religion is still around despite becoming obsolete, and an insult to human intelligence, is only proof that people really do need something to give meaning to their life, and to rationalise things they don't understand.

Can you elaborate on that? How is religion 'obsolete'? And what makes it an insult to human intelligence?

It's obsolete because it no longer serves a purpose. Any reasonable person with half a brain cell can see that even if a god exists, rules and laws have absolutely nothing to do with it.

It's insulting to human intelligence, because by joining a religion, 90% of the time, you may as well have a full frontal lobotomy. That is to say, in order to accept all the self-contradictory and senseless crap that comes with a religion, you have to abandon all reason and logic, and simply become a zombie who allows their head to be filled with rubbish that makes no sense.

fiftysixer wrote:
Spectre557 wrote:Religion often has almost nothing to do with any actual spirituality; It does at its core, but around that is a senseless, controlling mass of scripture, laws and rituals, that only turn someone who wants to believe in "something" into a mindless sheep.

Not meaning to start a flamefight here, but you obviously know very very little about religion.

You couldn't start a flamefight better than by making a pointless insult.

However, I'll try to explain myself: Religion began with people trying to explain things they didn't understand, and gods were pretty much thought up as personifications of natural forces and ideas. Even if you'd like to believe in that stuff, whatever modern packaging it comes in, just where the hell do all the attached rules come from?

Here are some examples:
- The oppression of women
- The persecution of homosexuals
- The hatred of other races and religions.

All these aren't based on any kind of spirituality, they're senseless ideas which have come about through culture and prejudice, not from "divine inspiration" of any description. The proof is in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament, and what Christianity has done as times have changed is to simply ignore bits of the Bible which contradict their other teachings or aren't compatible with modern society.

Hope that clears up what exactly I was getting at.

EDIT: P.S. LMAO at Pastafarians! :lol:
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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by Zune5 on Mon May 18, 2009 8:15 pm
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Yessir. Yes I am.
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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by Possumdude0 on Tue May 19, 2009 4:27 am
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Religion has nothing to do with Spirituality most of the time. Like Spectre said, at it's core it does but it's ruined by human beings with agendas.


Don't blame the religions for the actions of the humans that practice them. While some religions (and if you include Christianity in this list I promise not to be offended) are based around certain rules that you see as ruining spirituality, not all of them are like that.


It depends, does religion mean you must have faith? Because for a time I believed just because you believe in something, does not mean you have to worship said thing. So, I spent a great deal of time believing in tables...


Believing in something means you have faith in that thing. [Christian perspective] Even Satan has faith in God, because he believes God exists.[/Christian Perspective]


It's insulting to human intelligence, because by joining a religion, 90% of the time, you may as well have a full frontal lobotomy. That is to say, in order to accept all the self-contradictory and senseless crap that comes with a religion, you have to abandon all reason and logic, and simply become a zombie who allows their head to be filled with rubbish that makes no sense.


I find it annoying when people say things like that, when they are obviously not true. I'm a Christian, and yet I go to college. I'm majoring in Computer Science and considering a minor in either Chemistry, Physics, or Math. I'd like to think that I use reason and logic quite a bit in my studies, both for class and for my own personal learning.

My atheist friends have helped me to apply that ability to use reason and logic to my Christian faith, although the effects were quite the opposite of what they intended. Without applying reason and logic to my faith, I may never have truly understood what it means to be Christian!

I have spent almost two years with these friends, listening to their arguments, and I still haven't learned all there is to learn about it (and probably never will), but I do know that non of the arguments my non-religious friends have thrown at me have shaken my faith, because after I give them careful consideration they simply don't make sense, even from a non-Christian perspective.
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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by Spectre557 on Tue May 19, 2009 12:02 pm
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Possumdude0 wrote:I'd like to think that I use reason and logic quite a bit in my studies, both for class and for my own personal learning.

Fair enough, I'll revise what I originally said... you don't have to have a full frontal lobotomy, you just have to act like you've had one when it comes down to thinking about religion.

What I'm getting at is that loads of really fundamental religious ideas directly conflict with what we can tell from common sense and scientific knowledge. Now as a scientist yourself, I'm sure you appreciate the importance of what can be proven unmistakably by science. Consider that a huge slice of the yummy cake that is religion totally contradicts things that you can physically prove with arguments that have no scientific basis, and can't be proved.

Furthermore, loads of religious laws and teachings are total nonsense even when looked at through the eyes of a theist. You can believe in a god without buying the crap about "if you wear some rubber over your cock you're going to Hell, but if you kill an unbeliever, you're going straight to Heaven". Maybe a poor example given that Christians have changed some bits, most notably about the murdering... But does forbidding someone with AIDS from using a condom count as murder? Of course not, God would rather their partner dies a slow death than they use contraception, so it's OK.

Understand yet? Another example maybe; self-contradiction. Not only have Christians changed their policies to match the times (a bit at least) despite it being the "infallible word of God", they also have mutually exclusive laws.

An example of that: How basically everything is a sin but if you're sorry and you pray you'll be forgiven. Yet at the same time God knows everything you've ever said or done or thought so he knows whether you're sorry or not anyway. Maybe you just have to pray to look like a moron, but God wouldn't do that to you because he loves you. But you're still going to burn for all eternity if you don't. :shock: And so on...

And probably the most important thing i can think of right now is just where Christians get this crap from. The Bible. They have decided that the translated, interpreted, heavily watered down ramblings of some crazy old men who lived thousands of years ago, is the best way to decide what's right and wrong in our society. Half of them were probably on drugs, and a few of them definitely were. Now as a large proportion of these "teachings" just wouldn't be tolerated by any sane person in modern society, since they incite hatred, violence, and discrimination, Christians choose to ignore some bits of it, and embrace others. Despite it, once again, being the "infallible word of God".

They might say that they justify using this as guidance because it's divinely inspired. But how the hell (forgive the pun :twisted:) do they know that? Well because it says it in the Bible. And how do you know it's true? Because it's divinely inspired. Et cetera. God really contradicts himself a lot, eh?

In short, you don't need to be an idiot to be religious, but it helps.
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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by Possumdude0 on Thu May 21, 2009 8:55 am
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Consider that a huge slice of the yummy cake that is religion totally contradicts things that you can physically prove with arguments that have no scientific basis, and can't be proved.


Which parts? I'm not saying they aren't there, I'm saying I'd like you to point them out to me.

You can believe in a god without buying the crap about "if you wear some rubber over your cock you're going to Hell, but if you kill an unbeliever, you're going straight to Heaven".


1) Non of the Christians I know are against contraception. We're against premarital sex, but if a married couple wants to avoid having kids it's fine with us.

2) Killing an unbeliever does not send you straight to Heaven. Murder is murder whether the person is a Christian or not. Note that all killing is not considered murder, but the distinction generally has less to do with the religious views of the parties involved and more to do with the specifics of the situation.

During the crusades the Pope claimed that any soldiers fighting on Christianity's side would receive forgiveness. This was totally wrong and I haven't seen a single scriptural passage that says otherwise, although I'm sure the Pope of the time had some interpretation to justify it.

How basically everything is a sin but if you're sorry and you pray you'll be forgiven. Yet at the same time God knows everything you've ever said or done or thought so he knows whether you're sorry or not anyway.


It's the being sorry part (and actively working to change your ways) that brings forgiveness. God grants his forgiveness when you repent and turn away from sin, doing this doesn't necessarily require prayer, although many people find that regularly praying helps them to avoid sin.

Christians choose to ignore some bits of it, and embrace others.


And that is wrong. Not all people who call themselves Christian are saved.

God really contradicts himself a lot, eh?


All the contradictions and logical fallacies people have told me are in the Bible have turned out to be not so contradictory or false when I actually looked at them. Many of the people who make the claim that the Bible contradicts itself haven't been able to point out a single instance when asked. Others have pointed some out in a way that made it obvious they hadn't actually looked into it themselves (they couldn't give an answer when I asked them to clarify what the actual contradiction was when their original accusation was vague).

There is a book in my university library on this very subject. Since non of the people throwing these accusations at my religion have been able to substantiate their accusations, I'm waiting for the book to be back in (it's due back sometime around the middle of the summer) so I can get it and see what it says.
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Re: The question is, are you religous?

Post by sandsphinx on Thu May 21, 2009 10:00 am
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sandsphinx wrote:Religion entwines itself through all cultures and creates socialization, and norms, and so on...

Is that supposed to be a good thing?


I think that norms are a good thing, norms define cultures and social integrity. We cannot survive without norms for norms control what everyone does. Without norms we would not have different music, and different clothing, the world would be a mess, before scientific theories were created, religion ruled, and they were the foundation of norms, so we have to thank religion for norms. They are the building blcoks of civilisation, the roots of the tree, so to speak, and i think that now, our age of science and facts should branch off to a new direction, leaving religionm behind. But to stop religion, and to make everyone in the world believe in the facts, would take hundreds maybe thousands of years...
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