What gives religious organizations the right to control us?

[The_Computer_Wizard]

Ok, so the subject is probably not the best description, but i was debating what i wanted it to be

what im really looking for is why do people think they have the right to control others? but not in the sense of a government, im talking more like religious organizations
if you look at laws, in a simplistic view for now, they are generally created to do common good
laws against stealing, murder, vandalism
also there are laws to protect businesses and things like that

now my question is with certain topics (lets say gay marriage) why do people feel so strongly that it needs to be illegal? personally im for gay marriage (and no im not gay)
now i dont want this topic to be if you're pro gay marriage, abortion, whatever

ive always prided myself with trying to look at issues with more than my perspective, to try and look at the other side. But in this case i just have never seemed to been able to. I can understand if you feel it is wrong, i can understand if you feel that someone will "burn in hell" for doing it, but what gives the right to tell others how to live their lives when it affects no one else but them? It might be your "moral" responsibility to "save" them, but if you're forcing them to do something against their will, are you really saving them? Now i mildly understand pro-life advocates, because they claim they are harming another human

but what im really just interested in is what gives you such confidence? that you KNOW you're right and others need to live by it? because personally i see it as arrogance, and im sure thats not what some of these people view it as. I also dont think that all of them are motivated by fear of change (although im sure those who are still wouldnt admit that)

what im asking is trying to get deeper than the issues that always face society, and question more so why they actually are issues. Why do other people care so much that some person is doing something 1000 miles away? that they will most likely never meet or see? or even care about those they do see?

also i think its important to set some rules for this
1. while this is obviously going to be very oppinionated but lets try and back up any responses with facts shall we?
i dont want to see any posts like "I care because gays are an abomination on gods earth" its just a ranting oppinion and offers no insight
2. no slurs, i honestly dont care if you're for a group or against it. In this discussion treat them with respect
3. Please offer me your honest oppinions, and also id like to get it first hand. I dont really want people posting "well my friend is one of those people and s/he said..." i dont care what they said. They are not here to defend their point of view, and if you are against that point of view you're most likely not going to argue it properly

[DenyTheTruth]

First of all let me point out that it seems like you are heavily targeting Christianity, especially that of Catholicism. Not all religions believe in hell or that the things you speak of are wrong. Not all religions feel the need to "convert to save your soul".

I am a Methodist. One of our fundamental beliefs, as it is with all Christians, is that God is The Judge. He is the one who decides who gets to go to heaven and who gets to go to hell. It is our duty to relay His word to whomever will listen but we are not judges and are not to judge on His behalf. Anyone who says, "Do this or you're going to hell" or "God will hate you if you don't do this" or "God hates so and so". No. That is wrong. God loves everyone. God hates our sinful choices, but He loves us just the same. That's why His son died on the cross for us. That's the point. To forgive us of our sins. So everyone has a chance. Understand?

Anyone who comes up to you and says that you need to do something or that you must has no idea what they're talking about. Any intelligent minister will tell you that we are all sinners and that sins are sins. They're all bad. You can't escape sin. Don't listen to extremists and radicals. Don't let terrorists try and control your life.

Also, if you look closely at the Christian views, many laws coincide with the 10 commandments. Thou Shall Not Kill, Thou Shall Not Steal, etc.

You also asked why we care. We care because we want to give anyone who is willing to learn the chance to learn. It's not about who you know and who you think will or won't affect your life. Society ripples. Bad things that happen here affect things there. Vice Versa. Everything is connected and we want as good a life as we can have. If that means shedding light on the Lord, there you go.

Fact: God does not hate gay people.
Fact: God does not hate people who have abortions.
Fact: Homosexuality was not intended. If it was, procreation would work that way. That does not mean that homosexuals are going to hell.
Fact: Abortions are hard on the body and bad for people. In certain cases it's required. It's still not good, whether your pro-choice or pro-life you should realize that. That does not mean anyone who is pro-choice is going to hell.

The most important fact: God gave us choice for a reason. We could be drones but we aren't. If you force someone to do something you remove their will. That is not saving them. That's condemning yourself. It's a bad idea to tread on God's turf.

Personal Note: I do not read the Bible and I have never read it in its entirety. I do know that there are some passages that condemn homosexuality but the Bible was intended as a moral reference not as absolute law. There are many passages in that book that contradict with other things due to translation and dead languages. In the end you just have to hope that what you're doing is right and that God will grant you passage into heaven. Be a good person and you should be fine.

Thread Note: This should probably be in the religion or debate section.

[comperr]

Topic moved to Religion.

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OP is asked to please try to keep things in the correct topic.

[The_Computer_Wizard]

I'm sorry if it seems i focused on a particular religion, that was not my intent
i was raised catholic, but pretty much denounced myself considering i hate a lot of their views

and im not ignorant of religion, i understand why people say it, and why people try and "enlighten" others
what im asking is
say there is person a who is gay, and person b who believes that person a is living in sin and wants to "help" them

B: Do you know you're living in sin?
A: Thats not what i believe
B: But its against gods way
A: From your point of view
B: Aren't you concerned what will hapen to you when you die?
A: I feel god loves me the same, and im not commiting sin

now this is where i feel it changes from "informing" to what im talking about. See here, it is obvious person a is well aware of b's beliefs, however they are ok with living how they are. The question that i was asking was why do people insist on persisting? that they cant say "ok thats their choice" or "well thats not what i believe, but to each his own"
and while you say any intelligent minister would say that sins are sins and all that, there are MANY ministers that are regarded as "intelligent" that commonly speak against these issues, that even protest and feel it should be made law.

now about the ten commandments, its true we were founded as a christian nation, and for the most part still are, but the commandments are pretty basic. Pretty much any government throughout time has had some form of most of these. Even hammurabi had laws against murder and stealing, so to say they stem soley from the ten commandments isnt true

also, the fact that homosexuality was not intended either means you think its a choice, or you're contradicting yourself. Procriation is not the only use for sex (unlike what pretty much any christian organization would tell you) it can be a way to become closer to your partner, feel a greater sense of love and compassion, and to relieve stress. Now dont you think god could have intended that? Either god formed some humans to be attracted to the same sex, or they made a choice. Now are you going to tell me that people who were in the closet for 30-40 years due to fear, and when they finally came out their parents disowned them, friends left them, and lives drastically changed (knowing this would happen if they came out) made a choice to have that happen to them? if you believe that then we have entirely different views about fundamental human nature

also i have read the bible, and there are passages that say things such as "a man shall not lay with another man as he does a woman" which is the stem that many christians hold that homosexuality is bad. However look at the jewish faith, in their tora (our old testiment) it says thall shall not eat pork, do you see any christians passing up sausage? no, they scrapped that belief. The thing i think most need to consider is that the bible was written by man, not by god. it is not god's deffinative word on earth.


now getting aside from the religious points, because while this topic was going to have a strong stem in religion thats not the full spectrum of the question i was asking. I'm asking, when it has really no affect on someone or their life(regardless of their religion) why people persist? It is a question i have never been able to understand. Why are people so dead set against something when the only consiquenses that i can see would pretty much happen to the person making the choice. Now Deny the truth said that abortions hurt women, this is true (forgetting the argument that a fetis is a life for a quick second to argue this point) do you see us banning skateboarding? skiing? mountainbiking? they all have a risk of harming the individual. The fact is there is no argument there, it does all come back to whether or not a fetis is a life. I also think that pro-life people have a valid argument there (i disagree with it, but i think its valid)

i know im probably sounding like im repeating myself a few times here, but im trying my best to convey a vague topic
im not trying to argue if homosexuality is bad, or abortions are wrong
im trying to get deeper than that, and ask why people persist to the extent that they do? (and im not including nut jobs that blow up abortion clinics, there is no logic in that, kill one person and save another? they are contradicting themselves really) what im talking about are people who are everyday people, have kids, go to work, live happy lives, that take time out of their schedual to sit and protest outside a gay bar, or any other thing they disagree with, but really has no difference to them (or in my oppinion society)if its decided one way or the other.
i just want to hear an argument (i dont have to agree with it) that states something along the lines of "well i feel that i should protest it further because if gays are allowed to marry [insert answer here]"

[Dredric1]

religious organizations do not have any right to control
this is a free country

[The_Computer_Wizard]

no offense, but read the posts before looking at the subject and commenting
thanks

[DenyTheTruth]

I'm sorry if it seems i focused on a particular religion, that was not my intent
i was raised catholic, but pretty much denounced myself considering i hate a lot of their views

No problem. I wasn't trying to call you out, just making an observation.

and im not ignorant of religion, i understand why people say it, and why people try and "enlighten" others
what im asking is
say there is person a who is gay, and person b who believes that person a is living in sin and wants to "help" them

B: Do you know you're living in sin?
A: Thats not what i believe
B: But its against gods way
A: From your point of view
B: Aren't you concerned what will hapen to you when you die?
A: I feel god loves me the same, and im not commiting sin

Person A is wrong. All people live in sin. Gay, straight, priest, thug. Everyone is a sinner. That's not a religious belief. That's a fact. Everyone has some evil in them, some immoral ground. It's just how we are. You don't have to be religious to understand that.

now this is where i feel it changes from "informing" to what im talking about. See here, it is obvious person a is well aware of b's beliefs, however they are ok with living how they are. The question that i was asking was why do people insist on persisting? that they cant say "ok thats their choice" or "well thats not what i believe, but to each his own"
and while you say any intelligent minister would say that sins are sins and all that, there are MANY ministers that are regarded as "intelligent" that commonly speak against these issues, that even protest and feel it should be made law.

There is a difference between teaching the way and judgment. I have already discussed this in my previous post but I'll say it again. God is the only judge. And people who are regarded as "intelligent" are often not what they are regarded for.

now about the ten commandments, its true we were founded as a christian nation, and for the most part still are, but the commandments are pretty basic. Pretty much any government throughout time has had some form of most of these. Even hammurabi had laws against murder and stealing, so to say they stem soley from the ten commandments isnt true

I said coincide, not stem. Big difference.

also, the fact that homosexuality was not intended either means you think its a choice, or you're contradicting yourself. Procriation is not the only use for sex (unlike what pretty much any christian organization would tell you) it can be a way to become closer to your partner, feel a greater sense of love and compassion, and to relieve stress. Now dont you think god could have intended that? Either god formed some humans to be attracted to the same sex, or they made a choice. Now are you going to tell me that people who were in the closet for 30-40 years due to fear, and when they finally came out their parents disowned them, friends left them, and lives drastically changed (knowing this would happen if they came out) made a choice to have that happen to them? if you believe that then we have entirely different views about fundamental human nature

No, you're seeing it as black and white. Originally sex was only intended for procreation. It was not pleasant, it was not missionary, and it usually only felt good for the male as he was the only one that needed it to feel good so that he could ejaculate and impregnate the woman. The act of sex has evolved to the point where it can be used to relieve stress and draw us closer, but those are emotions governed by chemicals released by responses in our brain. You feel attached due to rising endorphins. This is to draw us closer so that we, again, procreate. The side effect to evolution is that there is mutation. This does not mean I'm calling homosexuals mutants or monsters or anything. It's a genetic fact that as DNA evolves it sometimes changes a way that was not intended. It's how a virus is formed or cancer or tumors or whatever. It also brings about red hair or receding hair lines or whatever. Homosexuality is just another unintended gene evolution. I speculate it is a result of our overpopulation to reduce our rate of growth.

also i have read the bible, and there are passages that say things such as "a man shall not lay with another man as he does a woman" which is the stem that many christians hold that homosexuality is bad. However look at the jewish faith, in their tora (our old testament) it says thall shall not eat pork, do you see any christians passing up sausage? no, they scrapped that belief. The thing i think most need to consider is that the bible was written by man, not by god. it is not god's definitive word on earth.

Like you said, the bible was written by man. However, it is supposed to be God's word. I believe that the Bible is correct in many things that it says, but I also believe that the Hebrew and other languages that it once was and has been translated from was not complete. As speech evolves and as languages die there is a transition that cannot be overcome. We may never know what the original bible says. The contradictions in the bible proves that.

now getting aside from the religious points, because while this topic was going to have a strong stem in religion thats not the full spectrum of the question i was asking. I'm asking, when it has really no affect on someone or their life(regardless of their religion) why people persist? It is a question i have never been able to understand. Why are people so dead set against something when the only consiquenses that i can see would pretty much happen to the person making the choice. Now Deny the truth said that abortions hurt women, this is true (forgetting the argument that a fetis is a life for a quick second to argue this point) do you see us banning skateboarding? skiing? mountainbiking? they all have a risk of harming the individual. The fact is there is no argument there, it does all come back to whether or not a fetis is a life. I also think that pro-life people have a valid argument there (i disagree with it, but i think its valid)

1. Abortion always causes harm. Not sometimes, not often. Always. There is no avoiding it.
2. Skateboarding, skiing, and mountain biking are all activities. Abortion is not something you do for fun.
3. Cocaine, heroine, and marijuana are harmful. They are also illegal. You shouldn't compare like that.
4. The pro-choice vs pro-life argument is moot. There will always be a time when the ability to perform an abortion is needed to save the mother or whatever reason. Also, if you remove legal abortions it will only cause rampant illegal abortions.

i know im probably sounding like im repeating myself a few times here, but im trying my best to convey a vague topic
im not trying to argue if homosexuality is bad, or abortions are wrong
im trying to get deeper than that, and ask why people persist to the extent that they do? (and im not including nut jobs that blow up abortion clinics, there is no logic in that, kill one person and save another? they are contradicting themselves really) what im talking about are people who are everyday people, have kids, go to work, live happy lives, that take time out of their schedual to sit and protest outside a gay bar, or any other thing they disagree with, but really has no difference to them (or in my oppinion society)if its decided one way or the other.
i just want to hear an argument (i dont have to agree with it) that states something along the lines of "well i feel that i should protest it further because if gays are allowed to marry [insert answer here]"

People do that because either they need meaning in their life, they genuinely care about someone's well being, or because they're dicks. It comes down to those three reasons, really.

[The_Computer_Wizard]

Person A is wrong. All people live in sin. Gay, straight, priest, thug. Everyone is a sinner. That's not a religious belief. That's a fact. Everyone has some evil in them, some immoral ground. It's just how we are. You don't have to be religious to understand that.

You actually just proved my argument between person A and B. You believe everyone is living in sin. You believe everyone has evil in them. Personally I agree with you that everyone has some evil in them, but what I'm saying is there are people who dont believe that. The inherent evilness of man has been debated by psycologists for years, no one really knows thus it is a belief. So what im asking is, if i tell you i dont believe that, why challenge it?

There is a difference between teaching the way and judgment. I have already discussed this in my previous post but I'll say it again. God is the only judge. And people who are regarded as "intelligent" are often not what they are regarded for.

granted, many people who are called intelligent are often idiots. But what im saying is theres a difference between teaching and force feeding

I said coincide, not stem. Big difference.

sorry, i must have misread

No, you're seeing it as black and white. Originally sex was only intended for procreation. It was not pleasant, it was not missionary, and it usually only felt good for the male as he was the only one that needed it to feel good so that he could ejaculate and impregnate the woman. The act of sex has evolved to the point where it can be used to relieve stress and draw us closer, but those are emotions governed by chemicals released by responses in our brain. You feel attached due to rising endorphins. This is to draw us closer so that we, again, procreate. The side effect to evolution is that there is mutation. This does not mean I'm calling homosexuals mutants or monsters or anything. It's a genetic fact that as DNA evolves it sometimes changes a way that was not intended. It's how a virus is formed or cancer or tumors or whatever. It also brings about red hair or receding hair lines or whatever. Homosexuality is just another unintended gene evolution. I speculate it is a result of our overpopulation to reduce our rate of growth.

not intended? maybe i missed something in religious school, but god intends everything, we are just unaware of his plan
again it stems back down to beliefs, you believe it was unintended DNA mutation
i say it could have been that way from the beginning, or he intended for our DNA to mutate like that
either way, its a belief. There is no proving it right or wrong

Like you said, the bible was written by man. However, it is supposed to be God's word. I believe that the Bible is correct in many things that it says, but I also believe that the Hebrew and other languages that it once was and has been translated from was not complete. As speech evolves and as languages die there is a transition that cannot be overcome. We may never know what the original bible says. The contradictions in the bible proves that.

Granted, there are a lot of mistranslations in the bible, like i read that jesus walking on the water could have actually been translated as jesus was walking by the water, or the red sea was the reed sea. However there are certain rules that have been translated and used to be followed but are now ignored. Like it used to be a sin to ever eat meat on a friday, then it was a friday during lent, now its pretty much its good not to, but its ok. Also again the pork thing has been thrown out.

1. Abortion always causes harm. Not sometimes, not often. Always. There is no avoiding it.

ok

2. Skateboarding, skiing, and mountain biking are all activities. Abortion is not something you do for fun.
3. Cocaine, heroine, and marijuana are harmful. They are also illegal. You shouldn't compare like that.

granted mine was a very poor example, but you came up with a better one. Yes Cocaine, heroine, and pot are illegal, but what about alcohol, cigerettes, chewing tobacco, and all the other things that are harmful that are legal?

4. The pro-choice vs pro-life argument is moot. There will always be a time when the ability to perform an abortion is needed to save the mother or whatever reason. Also, if you remove legal abortions it will only cause rampant illegal abortions.

i do agree with you there

People do that because either they need meaning in their life, they genuinely care about someone's well being, or because they're dicks. It comes down to those three reasons, really.

lol, i do agree, but to write them off as dicks i think is an oversimplification. They feel like they are doing good, that they are riding the world of evil. I just dont understand it

anyway, im actually enjoying this debate, and i think its been intelligent and non-condiscending (if i ever sound that way im not trying to be, just trying to make my point) and i thank you for that

[DenyTheTruth]

You actually just proved my argument between person A and B. You believe everyone is living in sin. You believe everyone has evil in them. Personally I agree with you that everyone has some evil in them, but what I'm saying is there are people who dont believe that. The inherent evilness of man has been debated by psycologists for years, no one really knows thus it is a belief. So what im asking is, if i tell you i dont believe that, why challenge it?

The inherent evilness may be debated, but the fact that all people do something evil at one point in their lives is not. Everyone lies ones, steals once, or something similar, once. It just happens. Sometimes it's not something you can avoid. Like cheating on a test because you were shown the answer and you weren't going to mark it wrong just because you saw the answer.

granted, many people who are called intelligent are often idiots. But what im saying is theres a difference between teaching and force feeding

Agreed. Force feeding is wrong. Teaching is OK. There is no debate there.

not intended? maybe i missed something in religious school, but god intends everything, we are just unaware of his plan
again it stems back down to beliefs, you believe it was unintended DNA mutation
i say it could have been that way from the beginning, or he intended for our DNA to mutate like that
either way, its a belief. There is no proving it right or wrong

You didn't miss anything. Some people believe that God has a plan for us and it is all pre-planned. Others believe he gave us choice. I believe that he knows all of the possibilities but lets us choose our path. It's a mixture of both and allows for his infinite wisdom and our ability to choose. I honestly believe there is no other possibility due to what we believe about God. So, in my logic, God intended for this path to be allowed, but not to be chosen. Therefore, unintended.

Granted, there are a lot of mistranslations in the bible, like i read that jesus walking on the water could have actually been translated as jesus was walking by the water, or the red sea was the reed sea. However there are certain rules that have been translated and used to be followed but are now ignored. Like it used to be a sin to ever eat meat on a friday, then it was a friday during lent, now its pretty much its good not to, but its ok. Also again the pork thing has been thrown out.

I'm not going to discuss this part further because we have an understanding and I do not know how to read Hebrew so I can't add more. Suffice to say that while I trust in the Bible I only go so far as to use it as a moral stepping stone. I do not believe its words to be law.

granted mine was a very poor example, but you came up with a better one. Yes Cocaine, heroine, and pot are illegal, but what about alcohol, cigerettes, chewing tobacco, and all the other things that are harmful that are legal?

I say those are man's laws and that the taxes outweigh the health hazards in the eyes of the government. It has nothing to do with religion. Abortion does because it directly deals with life and it's still stupid.

People do that because either they need meaning in their life, they genuinely care about someone's well being, or because they're dicks. It comes down to those three reasons, really.

lol, i do agree, but to write them off as dicks i think is an oversimplification. They feel like they are doing good, that they are riding the world of evil. I just dont understand it

I gave three options. The first two were the serious answers and the third option was a catch all for the remainder of people who don't fall into the first two sections.

anyway, im actually enjoying this debate, and i think its been intelligent and non-condiscending (if i ever sound that way im not trying to be, just trying to make my point) and i thank you for that

Good. I like debate.

[radicool_systemite]

"It is our duty to relay His word to whomever will listen but we are not judges and are not to judge on His behalf."

I think I know what you are saying, but I also think you've made the issue a bit too black and white. For example, in the Gospels Jesus tells his followers to judge righteous judgment. I don't think this means that we have the right to decide who goes to hell and who doesn't (whatever hell is, anyway) but I do think it means that we have the authority to point out things like greed, hypocrisy, and hate.

You see, even in your explanation you've made a judgment that people should not be making certain judgments.

"Anyone who says, "Do this or you're going to hell" or "God will hate you if you don't do this" or "God hates so and so". No. That is wrong."

I agree. It's probably better to say something like "do this or you could go to hell" or "if you don't do this then you may significantly increase your chances of going to hell".

"Anyone who comes up to you and says that you need to do something or that you must has no idea what they're talking about."

So if someone asks you why they can't post on this forum, and you tell them they need to sign in first, does that mean you have no idea what you are talking about? Sure, I know the context of what you are talking about is religious but seriously, if someone is being a hypocrite or a greedy bastard, do you really think the person who says "you need to stop being a hypocrite or greedy bastard" has no idea what he's talking about just because he had the courage to make a stand?

"Don't listen to extremists and radicals."

Not even just a little bit? I mean, if someone said, "take up your cross and follow me", would that be the kind of extremist radical we should not listen to?

"I do know that there are some passages that condemn homosexuality but the Bible was intended as a moral reference not as absolute law."

It's interesting that, in all of the gospels, there is only one place that even gets close to mentioning homosexuality, when Jesus mentioned the city of Sodom , one of the most infamous cities for homosexual behavior in all of history. (the residents there were so steeped in it that they actually wanted to rape two angels at one point, though they didn't know the men were angels at the time).

You'd expect this to be the place for Jesus to give some teaching about homosexuality but instead he said this...

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

It seems the real rebuke here and reason for their destruction, quite apart from homosexuality, was to those people who were just too damn wrapped up in the everyday cares of this life to care about what God wanted for them. Perhaps that's what we should be thinking about, too.

...why people persist? It is a question i have never been able to understand. Why are people so dead set against something when the only consiquenses that i can see would pretty much happen to the person making the choice.

When it comes to religion people can become quite emotional. Obviously, if you are convinced that there is a hell and some behaviors will send you to that place, then you want to convince people participating in those behaviors to change. The stronger you believe in hell, the more likely you are to persist in convincing those people they are wrong. I think that is the more sincere of the various answers for why people persist.

Of course, there are also hypocrites who think they've found some way to make themselves morally superior to others. The pharisees were like this in many ways. At one point, when the pharisees were arguing about sinners, Jesus said to them, "If you understood what this means, 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice' you would not have condemned the guiltless." I think this is something similar to what Deny has been saying, in that everyone is guilty of some kind of sin so in many ways it is counterproductive for Christians to pick out one particular kind of sin and focus on that.

Personally, I think Christians have a HUGE problem with greed, but where is the church preaching against it? If it came down to a competition between who'd have a better chance of getting into Heaven, the greedy or gays, I'd side with the gays any day.

So what im asking is, if i tell you i dont believe that, why challenge it?

Why are you challenging, right now?

Like it used to be a sin to ever eat meat on a Friday, then it was a Friday during lent, now its pretty much its good not to, but its ok. Also again the pork thing has been thrown out.

Not sure how this relates, but the explanation to your confusion here is the difference between the old testament and the new testament. For example, Jesus said things like, "you've heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you that when someone hits you on the one cheek, turn to him the other" and "you have heard it said to love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I tell you to love your enemies". He also said, "do not think I've come to destroy the law, but rather, I've come to fulfill the law". There are heaps of other teachings like this.

Agreed. Force feeding is wrong. Teaching is OK. There is no debate there.

I think compwiz is asking about where the line between the two is drawn.