The :God logic)

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Re: The :God logic)

Post by r-ID on Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:07 am
([msg=29007]see Re: The :God logic)[/msg])

Well said. Atleast someone has some good points. You speak the truth and i knew that, just I wasn't serious in some of my posts and I trolled a bit, sorry, it will happen again :)
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Re: The :God logic)

Post by Defience on Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:47 am
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Religion is always a hot topic.r-ID, I love this line:" sorry, it will happen again" :lol:

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Re: The :God logic)

Post by Goatboy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:42 pm
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Defience wrote:Correct that those things are in the bible, I guess I should not have posted so quickly and should have phrased that differently. I was referring to Christianity,not Judaism. You know after Christ came? While in the old testament it said those things, it is certainly not an accepted christian practice to kill gays or unmarried women that aren't virgins. In the old testament it isn't acceptable to eat pig or do anything on the Sabbath. Jesus said that those things were no longer significant in the same fashion, which is why Christians have no problem eating pork, bacon, ham, etc and typically worship on Sundays, not the Sabbath (Saturdays). Remember the biblical account of the adultress/prostitute that some men wanted to stone to death but Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Also, the old testament has the verse "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." but once again, Jesus taught tolerance by saying if someone strikes you on the cheek, turn the other cheek to them as well.


Oh, because obviously the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the one in the New Testament.
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Re: The :God logic)

Post by Spe-edS on Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:01 pm
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Defience wrote:Also, the old testament has the verse "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."


an eye for an eye leaves a world of blind men...
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Re: The :God logic)

Post by Possumdude0 on Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:50 pm
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Goatboy wrote:Oh, because obviously the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the one in the New Testament.


God is not different. The way we relate to Him has changed. The Old Covenant had very strict rules that we had to follow. Think of it as a probationary period. We had done a terrible thing by turning against God, by betraying Him after He had done all this work to make an entire planet just for us, and so we were put on a kind of probation where we had to follow these strict rules. But then Jesus came and established the New Covenant, ending our probationary period and making it incredibly easier to get back into a right relationship with God.

Remember, Jesus is God, they are the same being. He did not have to sacrifice Himself for our sins. He could have just kept the Old Covenant going forever. Given our ongoing transgressions during the Old Covenant period, it would be logical to assume that God would impose even stricter rules on us to bring us into line. Instead, He displayed how great His mercy is by making salvation the easiest thing to achieve. We don't have to live our lives by a strict code of rules that determines what we eat, when we work, and everything else the Jews had to follow, now we only have to ask and we shall receive that salvation.

So it isn't that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the one in the New Testament. He is the same God, with the same attributes. It is only the way He deal with us that has changed.
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Re: The :God logic)

Post by Goatboy on Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:06 pm
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Possumdude0 wrote:God is not different. The way we relate to Him has changed. The Old Covenant had very strict rules that we had to follow. Think of it as a probationary period. We had done a terrible thing by turning against God, by betraying Him after He had done all this work to make an entire planet just for us, and so we were put on a kind of probation where we had to follow these strict rules. But then Jesus came and established the New Covenant, ending our probationary period and making it incredibly easier to get back into a right relationship with God.

Remember, Jesus is God, they are the same being. He did not have to sacrifice Himself for our sins. He could have just kept the Old Covenant going forever. Given our ongoing transgressions during the Old Covenant period, it would be logical to assume that God would impose even stricter rules on us to bring us into line. Instead, He displayed how great His mercy is by making salvation the easiest thing to achieve. We don't have to live our lives by a strict code of rules that determines what we eat, when we work, and everything else the Jews had to follow, now we only have to ask and we shall receive that salvation.

So it isn't that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the one in the New Testament. He is the same God, with the same attributes. It is only the way He deal with us that has changed.

Alright, so the part about the probationary period makes sense to me. Basically we fucked up, and instead of just wiping us out, God showed His mercy and forgave us forever.

What I don't get is why God would have ordered all of those killings in the first place. The way I see it, one of two things happened:

-God really did order the killings of thousands of people, which would make Him somewhat malevolent (in my eyes)
-Whoever wrote those things in the Bible lied, which makes the Bible less credible

What is your opinion? I am really just trying to see where you are coming from, not just argue.
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Re: The :God logic)

Post by Possumdude0 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:48 am
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Goatboy wrote:What I don't get is why God would have ordered all of those killings in the first place. The way I see it, one of two things happened:

-God really did order the killings of thousands of people, which would make Him somewhat malevolent (in my eyes)
-Whoever wrote those things in the Bible lied, which makes the Bible less credible

What is your opinion? I am really just trying to see where you are coming from, not just argue.


The thing is that what we did deserved death. Completely and undeniably, any fair judge would have put us all to death. But God knew that if given the chance a good number of us would return to Him, and so He gave us that chance.

But what about the killing He ordered? Why would He do that if He were still giving us a chance?

I can only speculate on God's motivations, but the story of Sodom provides some information here. Abraham asked God if He would spare Sodom if fifty righteous people were found in it, and God said that He would. Abraham asked the same question for 45, 40, 30, 20, and 10. In each case God confirmed that He would not destroy the city if that many righteous people were in it. But in the end God did destroy the city, indicating that in the entire city there were not even ten righteous people.

This is just a personal interpretation, but I take this to mean that the people of Sodom were so steeped in sin that they would never turn away from it. Not only were they beyond help, but they would also influence others in nearby cities. God destroyed them just like a doctor destroys cancerous cells in a body.

Of course, not everyone God ordered killed was as bad as the residents of Sodom. It is, I think, an extreme example.

Now, we as humans naturally place value on human life. We tend to think that ending a human life is morally wrong. But there are many cases where we do not consider ending a human life to be morally wrong. Executing a serial killer is not considered morally wrong. A soldier killing an enemy in combat is not considered morally wrong. So the question we have to ask is if any of the killings God ordered are morally wrong. I have not come across such an example in my personal readings, but I will admit that not only am I a young Christian (I came to Christ about one year ago), I've also done most of my reading in the New Testament, so I haven't rad all of the passages where God orders killings.

I'd suggest that you get a copy of the Bible, if you don't have one already, and read through it. Whenever you come to a passage where God orders a killing, ask yourself what God's reasons for ordering this killing might have been. Were His potential reasons moral and just? Or were they immoral and malevolent?
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Re: The :God logic)

Post by Goatboy on Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:59 pm
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Possumdude0, you make some really good points. Again, I am not trying to argue, just see where you are coming from.

I have several Bibles, and although I am not a Christian anymore (I fell from grace about the same time you found Jesus) I still enjoy reading them on occasion. I know many of the stories, both good and bad, and have thought deeply about them. I am just trying to see if my reasons for leaving the church were logical.

I could go into a long story about my faith, but suffice it to say I was a Christian, am now an Atheist, and could very well believe again if I were to see things in a light that made sense to me.
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Re: The :God logic)

Post by Possumdude0 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:44 pm
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Well, what about Christianity doesn't make sense to you? You've already told me that a loving God ordering killings seemed illogical, what else?

Goatboy wrote:Again, I am not trying to argue, just see where you are coming from.


I enjoy discussing arguments against Christianity. I've found that being informed strengthens my faith, whereas if I remained ignorant then I might be led astray by someone who says things that sound good but have no substance, like I was when I was younger. And after the things I've heard from some of my closest friends I can almost guarantee you won't offend me.
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Re: The :God logic)

Post by sanddbox on Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:41 pm
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Here is my question.

God made us.

God made our parents, our objects, basically everything around us.

All of those things influence our personality, which dictates our decisions.

If God made us, and God made our personality, how is it fair for him to smite us whenever we make a mistake?

And don't answer 'it's god's plan', because that reaffirms the whole it's-his-fault thing anyway.
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