God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by faazshift on Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:55 pm
([msg=31416]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

@FreakFish:

First off, I agree that God is a perfect being and that he loves each of his children very much (more that the mortal mind can comprehend). I too believe we have agency, for it is necessary for us to choose whether to follow righteous influences or evil. Satan was banished from heaven because he wanted to force everyone to be a certain way, which defies all that God stands for. So, why wouldn't he force us to think a certain way or do certain things (even though he is a master at his own creation)? Because loves us and doesn't believe in forcing us to choose His way.

If God loves us so much, why would he let us suffer? Why would he let todays world stand? He allows people to make their own choices. Some become corrupted and cause others suffering, they will be justly dealt with after this life. Some suffer from starvation, homelessness, etc. Those things give them experience and make them better people. They will be justly rewarded for their perseverance after this life.

In my church we believe that all will obtain a degree of glory after this life (rightly according to the desires of their heart). All will be awarded their rightful degree of glory, except those who truly came to know God, yet turned their backs and openly defied him (aka. sons of perdition). They will be cast out of heaven to live with the devil in hell. All will be justly rewarded.

Why would God allow an angel to become proud? Agency. Lucifer had as much agency as all the rest of us. In my church we believe in a battle before this life. Not a physical battle, but a spiritual one, where Lucifer convinced 1/3 of the host of heaven in his beliefs of how things should be, who were all rightfully cast our of heaven. We all had agency, and chose accordingly (its an eternally essential attribute). Those of us who supported our elder brother, Christ, who was willing to follow our Heavenly Father's plan and make it so we could repent and obtain salvation and exaltation, are here on this earth, as a test of which we will choose, righteousness or wickedness. While we are not perfect in this life, we have the potential to become perfect after this life. These, of course, are my churches religious views and not necessarily the views of the rest of the christian world.

I believe (in fact, know) that God is sad and heartbroken at the things his children sometimes do. It deeply saddens him, and at times he has even destroyed civilizations because of this, but if nobody could suffer, nobody would know what it was like not to suffer. If nobody could feel pain, they wouldn't know what it was like to feel pleasure. This goes back to Garden of Eden stuff. Without knowing evil, we couldn't know righteousness and choose for ourselves which to follow.

I personally believe that science and religion go hand in hand, though im sure you do not.

-- Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:10 pm --

@goatboy:

As I've touched on previously, if we know something, we can't have faith. God works on faith. If we know God exists, we don't have an opportunity to believe he exists. This largely takes away our opportunity to choose between righteousness and unrighteousness.

Also, I believe that people have actually seen God. In fact, the church I belong to has it beginnings in God revealing his true gospel (a restoration of the gospel Christ taught) in the 1800s to someone humbly seeking the truth. And I most certainly believe in modern revelation unto the righteous and seeking.
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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by ShadowSniper0819 on Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:11 pm
([msg=31419]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

In the words of Albert Einstein: "Religion without science is blind; science without religion is lame."
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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by FreakFish on Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:49 am
([msg=31442]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

but what you have written brings up something that somebody said earlier in the thread;

a perfect being would not feel anger, and would see that it would be best to create things incapable of defying him, or making him angry. as for the stories of god destroying civilizations, god would destroy every civilization on this earth today, and reduce us all to the animals we really are so we can "learn our lesson". This world is full of evil, the taliban, child soldiers, george bush, government... the whole earth to heaven system is flawed.

humans at base are evil, every one of us. there is no truely good person on this earth, and everybody gives to recieve. you may be shocked by me saying this, but there is a perfectly logical explaination, and the man who first discovered this went mad. you will always find personal gain coming from any action you make. everything you does benefits you in some way or another, even if you dont realise it. giving to charity stops you feeling guilty, giving to friends increases the chance that you will gain something from them in the future. giving to family helps your family survive. living a "good life" and being a "good person" is purely for personal gain.

there is the promise that you will go to heaven, and get everything you want and everything you like all the time. people will like you if you are nice to them. it all comes back to yourself, and it is basic human instinct to prolong your own survival.

if you can do stuff wrong in heaven and you still have to live - well, thats a grey area - by the rules, then heaven should be empty. everything you could ever want or imagine comes to you in an instant right? but if you are capable of sin in an environment where you can have everything thee then the moment you are tempted you will have automatically sinned and be dropped out of the sky into hell. in fact, you would be kicked out of heaven the moment you got there. "wow, i can have anything!" and you think of everything, including sinful things.

If God loves us so much, why would he let us suffer? Why would he let todays world stand? He allows people to make their own choices. Some become corrupted and cause others suffering, they will be justly dealt with after this life.


What about those poor egyptians? wouldent let the slaves go so god... killed all their children amongst other horrific things? i think he made quite a lot of people suffer then, and they were definately dealt with on the spot in the life they were in. wouldent it have been more perfect to show his power by moving the slaves to wherever and showing the egyptians what good miracles he could do for them rather than kill their children, destroy their livelyhoods and maim and slaughter their armies with fire and water? do you burn, drown or destroy the livelyhoods of people you love to teach them a lesson rather than doing the peaceful thing and encouraging them to respect you? i mean come on he wants people to make their own decisions and be good and get to heaven by themselves, but surely by killing those countless egyptains he cut their lives short and made them unable to repent for their sins and be forgiven? basically putting them in hell so the slaves could be free. andeven then those slaves have the potential to commit sins and waste the chances they had been given?

by gods law i didnt think one person was worth more than another?

its not what i would have done, and im not a perfect being. im almost a perfect being but not quite ;)
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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by neuromanta on Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:08 am
([msg=31443]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

This kind of argument doesn't make sence in the first place. You guys refer to god as a person. You think about god just like christians do. You think, that if god exists, then he/she/it is a being high in the skies, or at the center of the universe, whatever, and he sees down to us, and does everything as he pleases. This doesn't make sence.
If god exists, it is everywhere. It is in everyone. The Bible sais that god created Adam to be like him. This doesn"t mean that god looks like a human. This means that every human has the spark of god, so everyone is a Creator (sidenote: as you see, this is a metaphor... like almost everything in the bible). If god exists, then he is the universe, he is nature, he is in our subconcious. If god exists, it isn't human! So this whole argument (where you guys try to explain god with human concepts) loses it's sence.
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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by FreakFish on Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:19 am
([msg=31444]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

neuromanta wrote:This kind of argument doesn't make sence in the first place. You guys refer to god as a person. You think about god just like christians do. You think, that if god exists, then he/she/it is a being high in the skies, or at the center of the universe, whatever, and he sees down to us, and does everything as he pleases. This doesn't make sence.
If god exists, it is everywhere. It is in everyone. The Bible sais that god created Adam to be like him. This doesn"t mean that god looks like a human. This means that every human has the spark of god, so everyone is a Creator (sidenote: as you see, this is a metaphor... like almost everything in the bible). If god exists, then he is the universe, he is nature, he is in our subconcious. If god exists, it isn't human! So this whole argument (where you guys try to explain god with human concepts) loses it's sence.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IaudsdrPjY

that video is my answer to you.

didnt contain the exact line i was looking for, but earlier in the episode one of the monks said something like you did, and another one replied "yeah, thats conveniant. a theory about god that dosent involve looking through a giant telescope. now get back to work!"
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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by neuromanta on Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:52 am
([msg=31446]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

FreakFish wrote:
neuromanta wrote:This kind of argument doesn't make sence in the first place. You guys refer to god as a person. You think about god just like christians do. You think, that if god exists, then he/she/it is a being high in the skies, or at the center of the universe, whatever, and he sees down to us, and does everything as he pleases. This doesn't make sence.
If god exists, it is everywhere. It is in everyone. The Bible sais that god created Adam to be like him. This doesn"t mean that god looks like a human. This means that every human has the spark of god, so everyone is a Creator (sidenote: as you see, this is a metaphor... like almost everything in the bible). If god exists, then he is the universe, he is nature, he is in our subconcious. If god exists, it isn't human! So this whole argument (where you guys try to explain god with human concepts) loses it's sence.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IaudsdrPjY

that video is my answer to you.

didnt contain the exact line i was looking for, but earlier in the episode one of the monks said something like you did, and another one replied "yeah, thats conveniant. a theory about god that dosent involve looking through a giant telescope. now get back to work!"


You are right, I didn't prove my concept with any logical, scientifically based proof. Sorry that I'm not that materialist. But so many people argued on this issue for so many years, and no one could ever explain god with human concepts. Trying to understand it is one thing, bickering about it is another.
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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by donod on Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:57 am
([msg=31447]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

he said somthing interesting : when we speak about "god" we are speaking about wich one ?
the zorostrian one ?
the muslim one ?
the jewish one ?
maybe they all have different "definitions" of god wich maybe compatible ...... or not :)
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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by faazshift on Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:16 am
([msg=31450]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

@FreakFish:

Why would God make a people capable of defying him? Because he wants us to be able to choose for ourselves whether to follow him or satan. Also, I believe humans have both good and evil potential. I don't think we are all naturally evil. We all have the capability to be evil, but we also all have the capability to be good. Sure we may do something because we are looking for some sort of reward, but if we aren't looking for an immediate reward, but rather to be rewarded after this life, and as such become kind, serving, loving people, is that really such a terrible thing?!

@neuromanta:

I fully respect your beliefs, but in my church we believe God to be a perfected being, and the being which we were formed after. We, however, were given these imperfect mortal bodies to learn, gain experience, and develop godly attributes. We believe that, as one of our leaders once said, "as man now is, God once was. as God now is, man may become". I know it may be difficult for some to accept these beliefs, but I know with certainty that this is true.
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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by Goatboy on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:30 pm
([msg=31451]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

faazshift, I'm going to quote you and highlight a few key phrases:

faazshift wrote:I know it may be difficult for some to accept these beliefs, but I know with certainty that this is true.

plus

faazshift wrote:I believe (in fact, know) that God is sad and heartbroken at the things his children sometimes do.

completely contradicts

faazshift wrote:As I've touched on previously, if we know something, we can't have faith. God works on faith. If we know God exists, we don't have an opportunity to believe he exists.

Please elaborate on this, as it seems to me like a very large flaw in your arguments.
Assume that everything I say is or could be a lie.
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Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science

Post by faazshift on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:42 pm
([msg=31452]see Re: God&Einstein: Religion vs Science[/msg])

As paul taught, faith is evidence of things not seen. I know because I have had the truthfulness confirmed to me by the Spirit. As such, I don't agree that 'I know' contradicts faith. Its merely not having to see something to gain a knowledge of it.
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